Boar sword cross bar

[Foxbat]

Thank you so much! The idea of tapping the parts was one of the first, that crossed my mind, but I put it on hold due to the fact, that I wasn't sure how common the screw threads were back in early 16th century.

I really wish people at Met would let me handle theirs.

I have seen the picture in Fernando's post, one appears to have the spring on top, that latches the bar in, the spring idea is also on the table at this time.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

Thank you so much! The idea of tapping the parts was one of the first, that crossed my mind, but I put it on hold due to the fact, that I wasn't sure how common the screw threads were back in early 16th century.

I really wish people at Met would let me handle theirs.

I have seen the picture in Fernando's post, one appears to have the spring on top, that latches the bar in, the spring idea is also on the table at this time.

screws and pin fastenings were known and laboriously hand filed, as were small intricate gears in pre-christian greece/rome. common metal screws were 16c, contemporary with the sword. many wheel lock firearms used them, and accurate screw cutting lathes were invented late 18c.

there's a lot of ancient technology that was lost and we are still rediscovering it. like roman concrete used to build the coliseum and the pantheon, which sets underwater and gets stronger with age, not weaker like our 'modern' version. our's barely lasts a couple decades. the unreinforced dome of the pantheon in rome has lasted for almost 2000 years, having only needed some minor repairs in 200a.d. after a quake. we only recently found clay and bimetallic batteries we think were used in pre-christian turkey to electroplate stuff. and so it continues... the 'ancients' were just as smart and crafty as we are. and a lot more brutal.

you could always try the royal armoury at leeds, uk. they may have one they could photograph for you if you ask them nicely.

the facebook page of their affiliated association is at https://www.facebook.com/groups/498926490154772/

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by kronckew

screws were known and laboriously hand filed, as were small intricate gears in pre-christian greece/rome. common metal screws were 16c and accurate screw cutting lathes were invented late 18c.

Thread-cutting machine tools - yes, later, and yes, the screw thread can be cut by hand, but the internal, female one requires a tap of some kind.

I presume these developments have been studied and documented, I would be curious to see them.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

Thread-cutting machine tools - yes, later, and yes, the screw thread can be cut by hand, but the internal, female one requires a tap of some kind.

I presume these developments have been studied and documented, I would be curious to see them.

a tap is just a hardened screw with lengthwise channels cut in it for the shavings. as i mentioned, the male screws in wheel locks would have engaged matching tapped female ones. they would not have made individual screws with a file. they'd make a tap, then drill a hole, tap it and cut channels inside or drill holes partly overlapping the threaded hole to make a die. then harden it, and then make zillions of screws with the die, and tap zillions of holes with the tap, all closely matching & mating (till the taps & dies wore down, then they'd make new ones)

the spring bar latching one would be easier to make. they don't need to be particularly tight and immoveable to work as intended as long as they don't easily come off.

here's some we made earlier (my uncle was a master tool and die maker)

[Foxbat]

Yes, I know what the tap is, I have tons of them in my workshop. I guess my question is - if it is generally understood that a nut-and-bolt pair was not uncommon in the early 16th century, then this approach can be viable. However, generally speaking, screws on weapons became common in the 18th century - usually attaching the guard to the pommel.

In reality I might make two versions, one with the screw, and the other one with the spring.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

Yes, I know what the tap is, I have tons of them in my workshop. I guess my question is - if it is generally understood that a nut-and-bolt pair was not uncommon in the early 16th century, then this approach can be viable. However, generally speaking, screws on weapons became common in the 18th century - usually attaching the guard to the pommel.

In reality I might make two versions, one with the screw, and the other one with the spring.

be creative & don't forget to post photos these swords are i gather, rather uncommon and those with crossbars even more so.

p.s. if you look at a tap and die set with shaving channels that match the width of the cutting teeth on the matching piece, you can see where some bright spark figured out the interrupted thread breech used on artillery breech loaders and even bolt action rifles and some automatics mid 19c and to now.

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

Thread-cutting machine tools - yes, later, and yes, the screw thread can be cut by hand, but the internal, female one requires a tap of some kind.

I presume these developments have been studied and documented, I would be curious to see them.

"but the internal, female one requires a tap of some kind."

As a former lathe machinist, I often made female threads only with my lathe, this is really no big problem. All you need is a special lathe chisel for female threads.

In the old days every tiny manufactory had its own system for screw threads, which was always an enourmous problem, if one of the two parts got lost far away from the company or after the end of the company.
There were absolutely no norms, no DIN or ISO, nothing like that.


Roland

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by Roland_M

"but the internal, female one requires a tap of some kind."

As a former lathe machinist, I often made female threads only with my lathe, this is really no big problem. All you need is a special lathe chisel for female threads.

Roland

Same here. I have a lathe, plus other machine tools, in my basement - use them as great relaxation tool! I have cut internal threads, but only in fairly large diameter holes - 1/2" at least, for anything smaller I use taps.

Here's part of my basement. One of the challenges here is to make the part not look like it was made on a CNS mill. I have some experience making parts that look old for some restoration projects.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

... I have a lathe, plus other machine tools, in my basement - use them as great relaxation tool! ...

Rather huge and nice facility, that of yours. Mine is more on the space saving mode, cohabiting with groceries and other stuff .

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[Foxbat]

My wife would arrange the swap in a second, she keeps giving me hard time over the order in my shop.

I am not going to show her your picture.

[kronckew]

Mine is smaller than Fernando's. the kitchen and dining room table are my work areas, hand tools hidden in closets and drawers wherever there is room. only powered tools are a dremel and a worksharp linisher. there is a 'man cave' workshop in the community centre just across the road from me i can use, they have some power tools, drill press, band and table saws, sanders, grindstone, etc. i'd prefer a lathe, milling machine, forge, power hammer and a real full sized slack belt sander/linisher.

[fernando]

Courtesy Michael Trömner (Matchlock)

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