African shape !

Luc LEFEBVRE · 26th February 2006, 11:00 PM

I found this one yesterday, a short sword (48cm) from the Mongo (Ntomba, Ndengese) of Congo.
A really nice shape, I like it.It makes me think to the silhouette of a women with a long evening dress !
A good work of hammering and engraving on this blade.
Luc

ariel · 26th February 2006, 11:08 PM

A Coco Chanel sword!

Lew · 27th February 2006, 02:17 AM

[QUOTE=Luc LEFEBVRE]I found this one yesterday, a short sword (48cm) from the Mongo (Ntomba, Ndengese) of Congo.
A really nice shape, I like it.It makes me think to the silhouette of a women with a long evening dress !

Viva le Differance!

Lew

Flavio · 27th February 2006, 06:05 PM

Nice

Tim Simmons · 27th February 2006, 07:21 PM

Seriously I think many of these shapes may well be anthropomorphic, some possibly displaying fecundity. The shapes are abstract and very stylised a rounded mass may have its origin in the pregnant female form. Luc's avatar is often explained along with other similar versions as a man with outstretched arms in some learned journals. On the other hand I could be talking out of my @@@@ hole, hmmm. Tim

ariel · 27th February 2006, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Seriously I think many of these shapes may well be anthropomorphic, some possibly displaying fecundity. The shapes are abstract and very stylised a rounded mass may have its origin in the pregnant female form. Luc's avatar is often explained along with other similar versions as a man with outstretched arms in some learned journals. On the other hand I could be talking out of my @@@@ hole, hmmm. Tim

I think you are onto something!
Luc's avatar: it is a "cho" or a "kaura" of a Kukri!

Jim McDougall · 27th February 2006, 09:20 PM

It does seem pretty well established that many African edged weapons reflect key symbolism artistically rather than shapes intended to carry out practical functions.
This is often best illustrated by many of the forms of 'throwing knives' which are discussed in Spring ("African Arms & Armour", 1993, pp.77-78), in which the author notes that analysis of the cultural meanings of the weapon offer greater insight into its purpose than speculation on utilitarian application.

The 'muder', a so called throwing knife (having no record of having ever been used as such) and produced by the Ingesanna of the Blue Nile province of Sudan, is carried essentially as a 'male fashion accessory' (Spring, op.cit.).

The weapon is described as of 'female' form, the head (=striking section) the crossbar (=neck,body,breasts) and shaft and grip (=loins or legs). Spring notes these symbolic applications, as well as the local terming of the weapon ('the scorpion'....hmmm, the female association and this term seems applicable when thinking my ex-wives

.....suggest mans relationship with the natural world, as well as reconciliation of opposing elements within himself. (?). Now thats deep!!!

In any case I had to find out what all this fashion, evening gown etc stuff was about

.....
Now that I'm in touch with my feelings...I need a Bud

!!

All the best,
Jim

(this data from "Ngola: The Weapon as Authority, identity and Ritual Object in Sub-Saharan Africa", Norman Hurst, 1997, p.30)

Lew · 27th February 2006, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I think you are onto something!
Luc's avatar: it is a "cho" or a "kaura" of a Kukri!

Ariel

Luc's avatar is from an African Congo sword not a kukri.

http://lulef.free.fr/html/ngbaka.html

Lew

not2sharp · 27th February 2006, 10:01 PM

Quote:

The weapon is described as of 'female' form, the head (=striking section) the crossbar (=neck,body,breasts) and shaft and grip (=loins or legs).

Just following that line of thought, am I the only one who thinks the copper coils around the handle (head), resemble the traditional neck adornment worn by the women in parts of Africa?

n2s

Luc LEFEBVRE · 27th February 2006, 10:28 PM

Interesting, this duality male/female in African weapons.
Another exemple with these Laka throwing knives called miya-bo, the nga-til is the male one, and the ngéégue the female :
http://lulef.free.fr/html/laka.html

"The King, Mbang is the guardian of the trowing knives, and without the autority of miya-bo he would have to resign the office.Once a year, at the rain-making festivals, the Mbang displays the miya-bo to the people.At other time of the year the throwing knives are kept in a special hut, the ngéégue, facing the setting sun, nga-til looking towards the dawn.This is also the way in which the bodies of Sara Daye men and women are placed when they are buried"
from "African Arms & Armour" C.Spring

I agree with the fact that the nature inspired the creator of the weapons, especially, just look at the different shape : leaves, branch...women !
Abstract or figurative like my avatar wich is sometimes describe as "the representation of a human being with raised arms, some see it even as the representation of female sexual organs, provided you hold the blade in an abnormal position, upside down." from "Tribal arms monographs vol I / N°2.

But maybe this is the product of a delirious mind of an european...

Do you know other exemple of male/female weapons, not especially African ?
Luc

Luc LEFEBVRE · 27th February 2006, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by not2sharp

Just following that line of thought, am I the only one who thinks the copper coils around the handle (head), resemble the traditional neck adornment worn by the women in parts of Africa?

n2s

I don't think so, this kind of necklace comes from East-Africa most of the time, and in this part of the continent the weapons 'handles are not really covered with this kind of copper strands, but with leather (Masai) or just wood.
But this is my opinion...
This is a particularity of Congo's weapons, with red copper or brass wire, as you know, the Congo was (is) a big producer of copper, especially in Katanga.
It is a good grip for the handle, easy to work and decorative.
Strands of copper used by european (electric motors...) were also "recycled".
You can also find most of the traditional weapons, made with copper or brass blades, used as currency or for ceremony.
Luc

Luc

Jim McDougall · 27th February 2006, 11:52 PM

N2S, outstanding observation!! and extremely well placed. I had not thought of that and that is exactly the kind of thinking that is key in assessing the identification and cultural implications of ethnographic weapons.

Although as Luc has indicated, the regional origins of these weapons may not correspond directly to such adornments from other areas, I think the association is well placed. What has always amazed me about African weapons is the incredible diffusion via trade and intertribal contacts that network across the continent. Several years ago I worked on research on the so-called Zanzibar swords, which actually it seems, derived from Morocco, and such diffusion occurred via these same type networks, in this case trans-Saharan.

Luc, also very well placed observations, and thank you for including the references! The weapons of Africa are intriguing and almost always a puzzle, and this kind of discussion really helps .The references help us keep our bearings in ongoing research, so we dont retravel the same roads.Thank you!

All the best,
Jim

26th February 2006, 11:00 PM	#1
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 472	African shape ! I found this one yesterday, a short sword (48cm) from the Mongo (Ntomba, Ndengese) of Congo. A really nice shape, I like it.It makes me think to the silhouette of a women with a long evening dress ! A good work of hammering and engraving on this blade. Luc Attached Images

27th February 2006, 10:28 PM	#10
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 472	Boys & Girls Interesting, this duality male/female in African weapons. Another exemple with these Laka throwing knives called miya-bo, the nga-til is the male one, and the ngéégue the female : http://lulef.free.fr/html/laka.html "The King, Mbang is the guardian of the trowing knives, and without the autority of miya-bo he would have to resign the office.Once a year, at the rain-making festivals, the Mbang displays the miya-bo to the people.At other time of the year the throwing knives are kept in a special hut, the ngéégue, facing the setting sun, nga-til looking towards the dawn.This is also the way in which the bodies of Sara Daye men and women are placed when they are buried" from "African Arms & Armour" C.Spring I agree with the fact that the nature inspired the creator of the weapons, especially, just look at the different shape : leaves, branch...women ! Abstract or figurative like my avatar wich is sometimes describe as "the representation of a human being with raised arms, some see it even as the representation of female sexual organs, provided you hold the blade in an abnormal position, upside down." from "Tribal arms monographs vol I / N°2. But maybe this is the product of a delirious mind of an european... Do you know other exemple of male/female weapons, not especially African ? Luc

26th February 2006, 11:08 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	A Coco Chanel sword!

27th February 2006, 02:17 AM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	[QUOTE=Luc LEFEBVRE]I found this one yesterday, a short sword (48cm) from the Mongo (Ntomba, Ndengese) of Congo. A really nice shape, I like it.It makes me think to the silhouette of a women with a long evening dress ! Viva le Differance! Lew

27th February 2006, 06:05 PM	#4
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Nice

27th February 2006, 07:21 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Seriously I think many of these shapes may well be anthropomorphic, some possibly displaying fecundity. The shapes are abstract and very stylised a rounded mass may have its origin in the pregnant female form. Luc's avatar is often explained along with other similar versions as a man with outstretched arms in some learned journals. On the other hand I could be talking out of my @@@@ hole, hmmm. Tim

27th February 2006, 09:20 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,767	It does seem pretty well established that many African edged weapons reflect key symbolism artistically rather than shapes intended to carry out practical functions. This is often best illustrated by many of the forms of 'throwing knives' which are discussed in Spring ("African Arms & Armour", 1993, pp.77-78), in which the author notes that analysis of the cultural meanings of the weapon offer greater insight into its purpose than speculation on utilitarian application. The 'muder', a so called throwing knife (having no record of having ever been used as such) and produced by the Ingesanna of the Blue Nile province of Sudan, is carried essentially as a 'male fashion accessory' (Spring, op.cit.). The weapon is described as of 'female' form, the head (=striking section) the crossbar (=neck,body,breasts) and shaft and grip (=loins or legs). Spring notes these symbolic applications, as well as the local terming of the weapon ('the scorpion'....hmmm, the female association and this term seems applicable when thinking my ex-wives .....suggest mans relationship with the natural world, as well as reconciliation of opposing elements within himself. (?). Now thats deep!!! In any case I had to find out what all this fashion, evening gown etc stuff was about ..... Now that I'm in touch with my feelings...I need a Bud !! All the best, Jim (this data from "Ngola: The Weapon as Authority, identity and Ritual Object in Sub-Saharan Africa", Norman Hurst, 1997, p.30)

27th February 2006, 11:52 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,767	N2S, outstanding observation!! and extremely well placed. I had not thought of that and that is exactly the kind of thinking that is key in assessing the identification and cultural implications of ethnographic weapons. Although as Luc has indicated, the regional origins of these weapons may not correspond directly to such adornments from other areas, I think the association is well placed. What has always amazed me about African weapons is the incredible diffusion via trade and intertribal contacts that network across the continent. Several years ago I worked on research on the so-called Zanzibar swords, which actually it seems, derived from Morocco, and such diffusion occurred via these same type networks, in this case trans-Saharan. Luc, also very well placed observations, and thank you for including the references! The weapons of Africa are intriguing and almost always a puzzle, and this kind of discussion really helps .The references help us keep our bearings in ongoing research, so we dont retravel the same roads.Thank you! All the best, Jim