Portuguese cavalry saber

fernando · 16th October 2018, 03:28 PM

As you see Bruno, your saber is not Portuguese, and the specialist in its context is Jim.
I just wonder whether this model was exported to Spain and not (also) to Portugal. Just wonder, not documented at all.

bvieira · 16th October 2018, 06:31 PM

Hello,

I know the saber is not portuguese, most of the blades and sabers used by portuguese troops were made outside portugal... soligen, toledo, Great Britain....

My question right know is if this a export model or a pure british troops version!

Tks!

Best Regards,

BV

Jim McDougall · 16th October 2018, 07:17 PM

I have only seen one of these offered by a very reputable dealer.....who I will not name as there are notable restrictions regarding commercial traffic here. In this case it was virtually identical with the exact same forte marking format down to the abbreviated Birmingham.

As the 1821 (1829) pattern was produced through the 1840s and not replaced until the M1853 pattern came out (ironically also produced largely by Reeves) it would estimate the period of this sword late 1830-40s. It seems unlikely that Reeves or anyone for that matter would produce these for export and in such an atypical manner:
1. the wire braid grip yet with riveted ears off backstrap.
2. the blade with such unconventional markings and abbreviation for
Birmingham. Also it is dramatically reprofiled if indeed a British
blade. The blade on these 1829 patterns was 35.5 " long.
3. The scabbard is with single carry ring....which is more suited for
a Sam Browne belt (sash) than the double ring carry.
The double ring carry on earlier scabbards was designed to be worn
low slung when as mostly fashion but some practicality for horseman.
The large surround on the chape is termed a drag as it is for doing so as
the cavalryman walked and scabbard tip scraped the ground....sort of like
jingling spurs (an old Texas thing) .
Obviously a sash carried scabbard and shorter blade would not require
a drag.

So is this a Spanish made example imitating the British? The Germans copied the M1796 British light cavalry sabre until they created their own version....the M1811 Blucher sabel.....perhaps the Spanish followed in this manner?
After seeing only one similar example I am not convinced of the Reeves export situation....but this is certainly an 1829 type sword....and in no way a sabre made for British troops.

midelburgo · 16th October 2018, 09:23 PM

This model was made in Toledo by a private entrepreneur called Ballesteros for the Portuguese army.

It was discussed here:
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...ht=ballesteros

Similar ones made in Eberfeld
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...ht=ballesteros

fernando · 16th October 2018, 09:54 PM

The model yes, might have been known to Portuguese forces but, this specific example doesn't appear to be a Portuguese import. In the place were these 'late' pattern swords used to be property marked by the Arsenal do Exercito (AE) there are digits worth of further reasoning, possibly those of a Regiment ?. Also that mark in the guard near the ricasso doesn't seem to be Portuguese. Interesting also the way Birmingham is initialized; doesn't seem to make sense.
Ah ... the dragging swords (espadas de arrasto). It is said that fancy horsemen even reinforced the chapes (here also called mud guards) with iron straps, to make them last longer. Still in the extreme they reached severe wearing.
(Picture courtesy Eduardo Nobre).
And by the way Bruno, is it my eyes or that scabbard looks too large for your sword ? Probably the picture angle is tricking me

.

Jim McDougall · 16th October 2018, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by midelburgo

This model was made in Toledo by a private entrepreneur called Ballesteros for the Portuguese army.

It was discussed here:
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...ht=ballesteros

Similar ones made in Eberfeld
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...ht=ballesteros

So then it WAS made in Spain......interesting exercise in research. It would have been far less entertaining if we had this information in the original post explaining why this was a Portuguese sabre.....but with a British name on a British pattern sword......so why if it was made in Spain would it be a sword for British troops?

fernando · 17th October 2018, 01:49 PM

Aren't we facing a riddle here ?

The Portuguese LC Trooper sabre follows the British P1821 for LC Officers, originaly German designed. Mounted for troopers with a relatively light blade (32" long) with a wired grip over shagreen cover. Other examples reach a 34" blade.
So it appears that this successful design was sold all over, Americas and other, Portugal obviously also in the list of those interested.
This called Reeves of Birmingham for attention, and they also went for an export share of the Solingen sabre.
At a certain stage, this design was also made in the Portuguese Army Arsenal.
Notably the Reeves version had a particularity; the steel scabbard, which was made elsewhere with 1,5 m/m wall, only had 0,7 m/m thickness, causing somehow a drag weakness. This could (could) be done to save production costs. But it could also be that not all Reeves scabbards were made this way.

Probably Bruno's (posted) example has not been imported from Reeves; if it had, it should in principle have the initials AE in both sabre quillon disc and scabbard suspension loop. But is is also true that it bears a number in the said quillon thatmay pertain in a Portuguese (Regiment) ... or better, a serial number. We don't know whether this number also appears in the scabbard ring loop, as wel lthe AE in the other side.

As for Bruno's sabre having been imported from Spain, certain oddities have to be circumvented ... in my perspective, of course. Why Ballesteros, or any Toledo maker/dealer, for the case, would imitate Reeves mark;to ensure better quality or trade prestige other than that of Toledo ? And, if this sword had been supplied under a Portuguese contract, would it be plausible and/or even allowed that the Reeves name appeared in the ricasso ?

It would be interesting to know from Bruno whether the scabbard suspension loop has any marks in either side and if the quillon point has the AE initials in the opposite side of that #number. Also the length of the blade would be a vital detail.

.

Jim McDougall · 17th October 2018, 06:24 PM

Q.E.D........if the original post had more details indeed we may have less circuitous discourse. Just the same it is interesting to see a variant of a sword form recognized as the British M1821 light cavalry sabre which reflects the wider scope that the form encompassed.

It seems the three bar, or barred guard itself evolved for more hand protection of course, but unclear which source might have inspired it. The French had the M1816 cavalry sabre with extra bars to the knuckleguard, but thought the Germans were still using the M1811 Blucher sabel in these times for light cavalry.

In the U.S. this three bar hilt did indeed become the M1833 Dragoon sabre made by Ames, which was in use a short period when replaced by the US M1840 dragoon sabre (from the French M1822 also a barred hilt).

It seems the British M1821 as noted, was in use until the introduction of the M1853, but the form itself continued in degree as the hilt style was continued for Indian forces of the British Raj....even into 20th century.
At the outset of the US Civil War there were M1821 patterns produced in Solingen (Walscheid, who also produced US M1840 swords) in c. 1861.

Returning to the Iberian Peninsula, it is puzzling why the REEVES name would appear on these Spanish exports to Portugal.....however it should be noted that Charles Reeves was enjoying a great deal of notoriety for his innovations in tang design as well as his prolific production of swords.
Perhaps in the Solingen manner, the name was being capitalized upon.
Such convention was it seems well in place.
The Portuguese it seems did have a high regard for British swords as they had been receiving their swords during and after the Peninsular campaigns. That perhaps had set a kind of precedent.

Still it is hard to imagine a Toledo maker, regardless of commercial interests, spuriously using a British (or any other for that matter) name. Spanish adherence to tradition and long standing reputation would seem to prevail.

16th October 2018, 09:54 PM	#5
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,650	The model yes, might have been known to Portuguese forces but, this specific example doesn't appear to be a Portuguese import. In the place were these 'late' pattern swords used to be property marked by the Arsenal do Exercito (AE) there are digits worth of further reasoning, possibly those of a Regiment ?. Also that mark in the guard near the ricasso doesn't seem to be Portuguese. Interesting also the way Birmingham is initialized; doesn't seem to make sense. Ah ... the dragging swords (espadas de arrasto). It is said that fancy horsemen even reinforced the chapes (here also called mud guards) with iron straps, to make them last longer. Still in the extreme they reached severe wearing. (Picture courtesy Eduardo Nobre). And by the way Bruno, is it my eyes or that scabbard looks too large for your sword ? Probably the picture angle is tricking me . Attached Images

17th October 2018, 01:49 PM	#7
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,650	Aren't we facing a riddle here ? The Portuguese LC Trooper sabre follows the British P1821 for LC Officers, originaly German designed. Mounted for troopers with a relatively light blade (32" long) with a wired grip over shagreen cover. Other examples reach a 34" blade. So it appears that this successful design was sold all over, Americas and other, Portugal obviously also in the list of those interested. This called Reeves of Birmingham for attention, and they also went for an export share of the Solingen sabre. At a certain stage, this design was also made in the Portuguese Army Arsenal. Notably the Reeves version had a particularity; the steel scabbard, which was made elsewhere with 1,5 m/m wall, only had 0,7 m/m thickness, causing somehow a drag weakness. This could (could) be done to save production costs. But it could also be that not all Reeves scabbards were made this way. Probably Bruno's (posted) example has not been imported from Reeves; if it had, it should in principle have the initials AE in both sabre quillon disc and scabbard suspension loop. But is is also true that it bears a number in the said quillon thatmay pertain in a Portuguese (Regiment) ... or better, a serial number. We don't know whether this number also appears in the scabbard ring loop, as wel lthe AE in the other side. As for Bruno's sabre having been imported from Spain, certain oddities have to be circumvented ... in my perspective, of course. Why Ballesteros, or any Toledo maker/dealer, for the case, would imitate Reeves mark;to ensure better quality or trade prestige other than that of Toledo ? And, if this sword had been supplied under a Portuguese contract, would it be plausible and/or even allowed that the Reeves name appeared in the ricasso ? It would be interesting to know from Bruno whether the scabbard suspension loop has any marks in either side and if the quillon point has the AE initials in the opposite side of that #number. Also the length of the blade would be a vital detail. . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 17th October 2018 at 03:16 PM.

16th October 2018, 03:28 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,650	As you see Bruno, your saber is not Portuguese, and the specialist in its context is Jim. I just wonder whether this model was exported to Spain and not (also) to Portugal. Just wonder, not documented at all.

16th October 2018, 06:31 PM	#2
bvieira Member Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 108	Hello, I know the saber is not portuguese, most of the blades and sabers used by portuguese troops were made outside portugal... soligen, toledo, Great Britain.... My question right know is if this a export model or a pure british troops version! Tks! Best Regards, BV

16th October 2018, 07:17 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	I have only seen one of these offered by a very reputable dealer.....who I will not name as there are notable restrictions regarding commercial traffic here. In this case it was virtually identical with the exact same forte marking format down to the abbreviated Birmingham. As the 1821 (1829) pattern was produced through the 1840s and not replaced until the M1853 pattern came out (ironically also produced largely by Reeves) it would estimate the period of this sword late 1830-40s. It seems unlikely that Reeves or anyone for that matter would produce these for export and in such an atypical manner: 1. the wire braid grip yet with riveted ears off backstrap. 2. the blade with such unconventional markings and abbreviation for Birmingham. Also it is dramatically reprofiled if indeed a British blade. The blade on these 1829 patterns was 35.5 " long. 3. The scabbard is with single carry ring....which is more suited for a Sam Browne belt (sash) than the double ring carry. The double ring carry on earlier scabbards was designed to be worn low slung when as mostly fashion but some practicality for horseman. The large surround on the chape is termed a drag as it is for doing so as the cavalryman walked and scabbard tip scraped the ground....sort of like jingling spurs (an old Texas thing) . Obviously a sash carried scabbard and shorter blade would not require a drag. So is this a Spanish made example imitating the British? The Germans copied the M1796 British light cavalry sabre until they created their own version....the M1811 Blucher sabel.....perhaps the Spanish followed in this manner? After seeing only one similar example I am not convinced of the Reeves export situation....but this is certainly an 1829 type sword....and in no way a sabre made for British troops.

16th October 2018, 09:23 PM	#4
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 248	This model was made in Toledo by a private entrepreneur called Ballesteros for the Portuguese army. It was discussed here: http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...ht=ballesteros Similar ones made in Eberfeld http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...ht=ballesteros

17th October 2018, 06:24 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Q.E.D........if the original post had more details indeed we may have less circuitous discourse. Just the same it is interesting to see a variant of a sword form recognized as the British M1821 light cavalry sabre which reflects the wider scope that the form encompassed. It seems the three bar, or barred guard itself evolved for more hand protection of course, but unclear which source might have inspired it. The French had the M1816 cavalry sabre with extra bars to the knuckleguard, but thought the Germans were still using the M1811 Blucher sabel in these times for light cavalry. In the U.S. this three bar hilt did indeed become the M1833 Dragoon sabre made by Ames, which was in use a short period when replaced by the US M1840 dragoon sabre (from the French M1822 also a barred hilt). It seems the British M1821 as noted, was in use until the introduction of the M1853, but the form itself continued in degree as the hilt style was continued for Indian forces of the British Raj....even into 20th century. At the outset of the US Civil War there were M1821 patterns produced in Solingen (Walscheid, who also produced US M1840 swords) in c. 1861. Returning to the Iberian Peninsula, it is puzzling why the REEVES name would appear on these Spanish exports to Portugal.....however it should be noted that Charles Reeves was enjoying a great deal of notoriety for his innovations in tang design as well as his prolific production of swords. Perhaps in the Solingen manner, the name was being capitalized upon. Such convention was it seems well in place. The Portuguese it seems did have a high regard for British swords as they had been receiving their swords during and after the Peninsular campaigns. That perhaps had set a kind of precedent. Still it is hard to imagine a Toledo maker, regardless of commercial interests, spuriously using a British (or any other for that matter) name. Spanish adherence to tradition and long standing reputation would seem to prevail.