Persian sword?

Hara_morin · 29th January 2014, 09:55 PM

Jim McDougall, thanks for your comment, i thought it is Afghan type hilt

A.alnakkas · 29th January 2014, 11:29 PM

Modern blade likely made yesterday. Its made in immitation of Persian trade blades. I have seen identical ones before on ebay but with a different hilt type.

The inscriptions are rubbish :-)

ariel · 30th January 2014, 12:53 AM

The blade does not look new to me. Its structure with 2 narrow fullers, complex wider fullers at the end and unusual pseudo-persian lion strangely reminds me of trade caucasian blades from Old Atagi. "Rubbish-y" inscription also hints at the same origin: no persian master would write rubbish in persian language, but caucasians did it all the time.

mahratt · 30th January 2014, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hara_morin

Jim McDougall, thanks for your comment, i thought it is Afghan type hilt

Hi Hаrа_morin!

It's definitely not the type of Afghan Hilt.

Jim McDougall · 30th January 2014, 03:57 AM

You are most welcome Hara! and this is a most interesting sabre, as is your thought that it might be Afghan.
The parrot hilt, virtually identical but with variations in the floral motif, and with similar curled back knuckleguard are known from Gujerat (Pant, 1980, CXX) and classified as 17th century (probably later). These style hilts however had pretty much the standard tulwar hilt elements in their quillons and langet.

This one is quite unusual in apparently corresponding to European hilt style with the quillon terminal disc and the langet which both seem to reflect elements of the British M1796 light cavalry sabres. During the 19th century there was a great deal of hybridization of British and Indian swords.
Possibly this example may have been one of these. I have seen tulwar hilts with British blades (quite common) and other combinations.

As Ariel has noted, these Persian traded blades (many spuriously associated with Assad Adullah the famed maker) were indeed often duplicated in Ataghi (in Chechnya) and I believe other some other Caucasian locations. The channeled blade and the 'key hole' like device in the blade resembles some of these blades of c 1830s.

I think a very nice example, and a good example of these type blades in unusual variant form probably of around mid to late 19th century. I would suspect possibly some interesting connections to the British Raj in India.

Best regards,
Jim

AJ1356 · 30th January 2014, 05:07 AM

It is interesting but not Persian, at first look I thought Indian. As I kept looking more and more, and try to make sense of the rubishy inscription, I think it might have been built to try and trick someone into thinking this is a Persian blade by Assadullah. Since there are parts of the inscription that could be mistaken as that. Interesting non the less. Could it be an older movie prop? Just saying that since I was watching Sinbad the Sailor today and they had lots of decent looking prop shamshirs and what not.

Jim McDougall · 30th January 2014, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ1356

It is interesting but not Persian, at first look I thought Indian. As I kept looking more and more, and try to make sense of the rubishy inscription, I think it might have been built to try and trick someone into thinking this is a Persian blade by Assadullah. Since there are parts of the inscription that could be mistaken as that. Interesting non the less. Could it be an older movie prop? Just saying that since I was watching Sinbad the Sailor today and they had lots of decent looking prop shamshirs and what not.

Hi AJ,
It would appear we crossed posts as I had just made some notes on this sabre in the previous post .
I think it is important to note that these trade blades were actually well made blades, and not intended necessarily to fool anyone. The Persian blades of this general form were also produced in Chechnya in the Caucusus, and the cartouches and allusions to Assad Allah were more to signify imbued quality.
A great reference is "The Persian Shamshir and the Signature of Assad Allah by Oliver Pinchot, "Arms Collector", Vol 40, #1, Feb 2002.

I assure you this is not a movie prop from Sinbad movies!!

LOL .
but those movies are indeed fun to watch. Gotta love those 'scimitars'!!!

Best regards,
Jim

RSWORD · 30th January 2014, 12:16 PM

In the last picture, if you look closely you can see that the blade is pattern welded and not wootz. And it seems to be a rather bold pattern weld. Would it be possible to get some good pictures of the pattern on the blade? From what I can see in that picture, the pattern weld is much more typical to India than the patterned blades you would expect from the Caucasus and not wootz as you would expect from a Persian trade blade.

Jim McDougall · 30th January 2014, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

In the last picture, if you look closely you can see that the blade is pattern welded and not wootz. And it seems to be a rather bold pattern weld. Would it be possible to get some good pictures of the pattern on the blade? From what I can see in that picture, the pattern weld is much more typical to India than the patterned blades you would expect from the Caucasus and not wootz as you would expect from a Persian trade blade.

Excellent and astute observation Rick! I had not noticed that, but you are of course correct and that does led more credence to Lofty's powerfully direct note. In my usual optimism I had been more drawn to the potential of this being one of those Persian trade blades or possibly as Ariel noted, a Caucasian copy.
I had also not noticed that the tip of the blade is quite more distorted in shape than these type of Persian trade blades and the brass cartouches and devices are not only far more excessive in grouping but not like the Persian examples.
With Artzi's much respected opinion and concisely well placed note, along with the others I must agree that this is far more likely to be a product of India from 20th century.
I did enjoy my wistful trip into the British Raj though with my ideas inspired by this attractive example, as well as the images of the Sinbad movies AJ!

Even if this is 20th century product, it still seems quite well made and of more vintage than the kind of things out of Rajasthan in more recent years.

All best regards,
Jim

Oriental-Arms · 30th January 2014, 12:26 PM

In my modest opinion, I agree with Alnakkas. Very late 20C. blade from India. The pattern welded steel is very similar to so many “Damascus” blades from India flooding the market.

29th January 2014, 09:55 PM	#1
Hara_morin Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 53	Jim McDougall, thanks for your comment, i thought it is Afghan type hilt

29th January 2014, 11:29 PM	#2
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,339	Modern blade likely made yesterday. Its made in immitation of Persian trade blades. I have seen identical ones before on ebay but with a different hilt type. The inscriptions are rubbish :-)

30th January 2014, 12:53 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The blade does not look new to me. Its structure with 2 narrow fullers, complex wider fullers at the end and unusual pseudo-persian lion strangely reminds me of trade caucasian blades from Old Atagi. "Rubbish-y" inscription also hints at the same origin: no persian master would write rubbish in persian language, but caucasians did it all the time.

30th January 2014, 03:57 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	You are most welcome Hara! and this is a most interesting sabre, as is your thought that it might be Afghan. The parrot hilt, virtually identical but with variations in the floral motif, and with similar curled back knuckleguard are known from Gujerat (Pant, 1980, CXX) and classified as 17th century (probably later). These style hilts however had pretty much the standard tulwar hilt elements in their quillons and langet. This one is quite unusual in apparently corresponding to European hilt style with the quillon terminal disc and the langet which both seem to reflect elements of the British M1796 light cavalry sabres. During the 19th century there was a great deal of hybridization of British and Indian swords. Possibly this example may have been one of these. I have seen tulwar hilts with British blades (quite common) and other combinations. As Ariel has noted, these Persian traded blades (many spuriously associated with Assad Adullah the famed maker) were indeed often duplicated in Ataghi (in Chechnya) and I believe other some other Caucasian locations. The channeled blade and the 'key hole' like device in the blade resembles some of these blades of c 1830s. I think a very nice example, and a good example of these type blades in unusual variant form probably of around mid to late 19th century. I would suspect possibly some interesting connections to the British Raj in India. Best regards, Jim

30th January 2014, 05:07 AM	#6
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 314	It is interesting but not Persian, at first look I thought Indian. As I kept looking more and more, and try to make sense of the rubishy inscription, I think it might have been built to try and trick someone into thinking this is a Persian blade by Assadullah. Since there are parts of the inscription that could be mistaken as that. Interesting non the less. Could it be an older movie prop? Just saying that since I was watching Sinbad the Sailor today and they had lots of decent looking prop shamshirs and what not.

30th January 2014, 12:16 PM	#8
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	In the last picture, if you look closely you can see that the blade is pattern welded and not wootz. And it seems to be a rather bold pattern weld. Would it be possible to get some good pictures of the pattern on the blade? From what I can see in that picture, the pattern weld is much more typical to India than the patterned blades you would expect from the Caucasus and not wootz as you would expect from a Persian trade blade.

30th January 2014, 12:26 PM	#10
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	In my modest opinion, I agree with Alnakkas. Very late 20C. blade from India. The pattern welded steel is very similar to so many “Damascus” blades from India flooding the market.