Two Interesting Dha

CharlesS · 18th July 2006, 03:19 AM

Here are two dha swords for comment. I am especially interested in opinions regarding origins of the top, more narrow one.

I believe that one shows some indication of Kachin characteristics(hilt), but the blade is vexing. It is of outstanding quality with an inserted hardened edge. On of the most impressive blades I have seen, quality wise...a petite, but deadly piece.

The second one is Kachin I believe. It features a gorgeous hilt, with especially nice rattan, fitted to a very basic blade.

Both scabbards are new, custom made for these swords.

Andrew · 18th July 2006, 04:50 AM

Hi Charles, good to see you posting.

The first one is unusual and beautiful. The polish really accentuates its quality.

I'd say the second one is Thai, late Ayutthaya/early Ratanakosin style. Also very beautiful and in fine condition.

At the risk of sounding coy, I'm really interested to hear what others have to say about both of these, so I'll stop right there.

You, my friend, have some of my favorite dha in your collection.

RhysMichael · 18th July 2006, 02:28 PM

Charles
Great dha and I too await the answers on them. To me the profile on the top one though far more seems to have some similarities to this basic shape

The blade on it does look supurb. Can you see what on japanese swords would be called a hada or ji-hada ?

Thanks for posting them
And if hte top one ever is on the market .....~grin~

Flavio · 18th July 2006, 03:22 PM

W

W!!!! BEAUTIFUL!!!!!

DhaDha · 18th July 2006, 05:13 PM

Congratulations. Beautiful.

Here's one that seems related. I was told Burmese. Although yours has nicer detail on the hilt. This one, I believe, is also sporting an inserted hardened edge.

Shawn

CharlesS · 18th July 2006, 08:56 PM

Thanks guys.

Yes Shawn, these are definitely akin to each other, even down to the hilt fit. You might want to do a light etch, just to see what you have there.

Mark · 19th July 2006, 03:25 AM

I immediately thought of your iron-handled dha, JT. I think I have seen one other that has that same tapering handle. I'm thinking the first one of Charles' is from Burma, especially since John's has a concave tip. I was just looking that the pictures on John's web-site, and am I right that it has some nice activity in the blade?

The fullering on your (Charles's) is pretty distinctive, I think. Two small fullers and one larger one. I have seen this on a few other dha, and now I want to go back and compare them all to see if there are other similarities.

I'm a bit undecided about the second one. I see where Andrew is coming from in attributing it to the Rattanakosin era. I have one that I am reasonably sure is Rattanakosin era Thai, which has a lot of similarities to it (blade shape, obviously, handle/blade proportion, the facetted ferrule).

Another Rattanakosin daab I have is similar in the design on the facetted ferrule:

But there are differences from both of these, namely the larger lotus pommel and braided rattan grip on Charles'. Those look more Northern Tai or Shan.

But, I also have seen very similar pommel designs on Burman dha:

But here is another one which I am fairly sure is Thai:

I lean away from a Kachin origin for the second one mainly because the handle is too long. Some Kachin groups apparently do use a Shan style handle (with the lotus pommel and facetted ferrule) on a short, square-tipped blade like this, but the handles in photographs I've seen are shorter relative to the blade than this one seems to be.

Here is the final plot twist (this one I am very sure is Shan or Northern Tai):

We used to think this was Kachin, but I have now seen several old photos of Shan warriors with dha-lwe and dha-hmyaung with this identical scabbard design, which has convinced me that it is a Shan style (plus the maker's mark on the blade is apparently a Tai mark).

So, I'm going with Shan, but from over the border in Northern Thailand. It sort of accounts for all the various elements - sort of Burman, sort of Kachin, sort of Thai/Rattanakosin. Of course, in a couple months something or someone will come along and show I am completely wrong.

CharlesS · 19th July 2006, 03:46 AM

Thanks Mark. I am curious how you and Andrew are able to associate the second one with on particular era. Please elaborate, and thanks again!

Andrew · 19th July 2006, 04:40 AM

Mark, this one from your site is really very similar to Charles':

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0071.htm

Charles, in many ways, my attributing your sword to the Ratanakosin era really isn't much more than saying "this one looks like it's from the late 18th to 19th century". It's hard for me to more definitely opine on age without handling it, as this may very well be a later sword in an earlier style (but I don't think so).

In that regard, I lean towards Ratanakosin (in style anyway) as some of the themes on the fittings evoke what I think of as an evolution of some elements well-established as Ayutthaya. I'm specifically thinking about the stylized lotus flower-petal themes on your sword's scabbard fittings and handle towards the blade (I'd love to see some close-ups of these elements, if you have the time).

The lotus bud pommel is, as Mark points out, not as helpful an identifying feature as we once thought as it appears in various forms on swords from many different times and places.

In any event, one reason I wanted to wait is because we've recently been fortunate to have some new Thai members who have been very helpful, and I'm hopeful they'll come forward with some information. (PUFF, are you out there?

).

Andrew · 19th July 2006, 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Bowditch

I immediately thought of your iron-handled dha, JT. I think I have seen one other that has that same tapering handle. I'm thinking the first one of Charles' is from Burma, especially since John's has a concave tip. I was just looking that the pictures on John's web-site, and am I right that it has some nice activity in the blade?

That sword of John's is pattern-welded, Mark. I covet it.

PUFF · 19th July 2006, 09:09 AM

Yes, I was around for some time.

At my first glance, I feel these two blades are not Siamese. Both of them are likely to be from Burma side. But as you mentioned, many elements are interchangable between ethnic groups.

The first one 's quite obvious Shan/Tai style blade. The fuller 's running to the tip 's quite rare for Siamese. Although its handle 's longer than many Burmese Dha. Shan/Tai Dha with longer hilt 's not very uncommon.

From the first glance, facetted furrule and flat/fat lotus of the second one remind me Tai origin. However, some Siamese Dahb also decorated with octagonal furrule. And the flat/fat lotus 's not very big (Tai 's Dha usually carry bigger lotus). It 's also possible to be Siamese origin. One impotant point 's in scabbard decoration. Stye of the lotus petal can be associated with LanChang people. Which was covered the north-eastern area of Thailand. So, another possibility 's Lao origin or craftmanship.

Mark · 20th July 2006, 03:18 AM

Charles,

A very helpful source to me for very roughly dating some daab is the book I think I told you about at Timonium - Punjabhan, Silverware in Thailand, Rengorm Publishing, Bangkok (1991) ISBN 9748869563. It has photos of several daab in museums, classified at least generally by era/area. By staring at them long enough I began to pick out the similarities among the Ayutthaya, Ratanakosin, Lanna, etc. styles. Still very general (the Ayutthaya Period covers about 500-600 years, and as Andrew said, the Ratanakosin era starting in the mid-18th century and up to the present day).

A couple things I noticed are that Ayutthaya period daab tended to have larger lotus pommels than Ratanakosin (which sometimes just had a very small bulge at the pommel). Both Ratanakosin & Aytthaya seem to have concave ferrules (sweeping inward), while Lanna style has convex ferrule (sort of bell shaped or bulging outward). Ratankosin daab seem to have quite long handles, Ayutthaya a little less so. The "conch" style pommel seems to appear a lot in the Lanna style. The Lanna daab also have a fairly distinct vegetal decoration, or stylized vegetal decoration (like the one of mine Andrew posted).

But these are just my own crude observations, based on a very few photographs. I learn a little something new every time Puff posts.

This time it was that ferrules running to the end of the blade are rare in Siamese daab, and the Lan Chang lotus style.

18th July 2006, 03:19 AM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,855	Two Interesting Dha Here are two dha swords for comment. I am especially interested in opinions regarding origins of the top, more narrow one. I believe that one shows some indication of Kachin characteristics(hilt), but the blade is vexing. It is of outstanding quality with an inserted hardened edge. On of the most impressive blades I have seen, quality wise...a petite, but deadly piece. The second one is Kachin I believe. It features a gorgeous hilt, with especially nice rattan, fitted to a very basic blade. Both scabbards are new, custom made for these swords. Attached Images

18th July 2006, 05:13 PM	#5
DhaDha Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 163	Congratulations. Beautiful. Here's one that seems related. I was told Burmese. Although yours has nicer detail on the hilt. This one, I believe, is also sporting an inserted hardened edge. Shawn Attached Images

18th July 2006, 04:50 AM	#2
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Hi Charles, good to see you posting. The first one is unusual and beautiful. The polish really accentuates its quality. I'd say the second one is Thai, late Ayutthaya/early Ratanakosin style. Also very beautiful and in fine condition. At the risk of sounding coy, I'm really interested to hear what others have to say about both of these, so I'll stop right there. You, my friend, have some of my favorite dha in your collection.

18th July 2006, 02:28 PM	#3
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	Charles Great dha and I too await the answers on them. To me the profile on the top one though far more seems to have some similarities to this basic shape The blade on it does look supurb. Can you see what on japanese swords would be called a hada or ji-hada ? Thanks for posting them And if hte top one ever is on the market .....~grin~

18th July 2006, 03:22 PM	#4
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	W W!!!! BEAUTIFUL!!!!!

18th July 2006, 08:56 PM	#6
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,855	Thanks guys. Yes Shawn, these are definitely akin to each other, even down to the hilt fit. You might want to do a light etch, just to see what you have there.

19th July 2006, 03:25 AM	#7
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	I immediately thought of your iron-handled dha, JT. I think I have seen one other that has that same tapering handle. I'm thinking the first one of Charles' is from Burma, especially since John's has a concave tip. I was just looking that the pictures on John's web-site, and am I right that it has some nice activity in the blade? The fullering on your (Charles's) is pretty distinctive, I think. Two small fullers and one larger one. I have seen this on a few other dha, and now I want to go back and compare them all to see if there are other similarities. I'm a bit undecided about the second one. I see where Andrew is coming from in attributing it to the Rattanakosin era. I have one that I am reasonably sure is Rattanakosin era Thai, which has a lot of similarities to it (blade shape, obviously, handle/blade proportion, the facetted ferrule). Another Rattanakosin daab I have is similar in the design on the facetted ferrule: But there are differences from both of these, namely the larger lotus pommel and braided rattan grip on Charles'. Those look more Northern Tai or Shan. But, I also have seen very similar pommel designs on Burman dha: But here is another one which I am fairly sure is Thai: I lean away from a Kachin origin for the second one mainly because the handle is too long. Some Kachin groups apparently do use a Shan style handle (with the lotus pommel and facetted ferrule) on a short, square-tipped blade like this, but the handles in photographs I've seen are shorter relative to the blade than this one seems to be. Here is the final plot twist (this one I am very sure is Shan or Northern Tai): We used to think this was Kachin, but I have now seen several old photos of Shan warriors with dha-lwe and dha-hmyaung with this identical scabbard design, which has convinced me that it is a Shan style (plus the maker's mark on the blade is apparently a Tai mark). So, I'm going with Shan, but from over the border in Northern Thailand. It sort of accounts for all the various elements - sort of Burman, sort of Kachin, sort of Thai/Rattanakosin. Of course, in a couple months something or someone will come along and show I am completely wrong.

19th July 2006, 03:46 AM	#8
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,855	Thanks Mark. I am curious how you and Andrew are able to associate the second one with on particular era. Please elaborate, and thanks again!

19th July 2006, 04:40 AM	#9
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Mark, this one from your site is really very similar to Charles': http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0071.htm Charles, in many ways, my attributing your sword to the Ratanakosin era really isn't much more than saying "this one looks like it's from the late 18th to 19th century". It's hard for me to more definitely opine on age without handling it, as this may very well be a later sword in an earlier style (but I don't think so). In that regard, I lean towards Ratanakosin (in style anyway) as some of the themes on the fittings evoke what I think of as an evolution of some elements well-established as Ayutthaya. I'm specifically thinking about the stylized lotus flower-petal themes on your sword's scabbard fittings and handle towards the blade (I'd love to see some close-ups of these elements, if you have the time). The lotus bud pommel is, as Mark points out, not as helpful an identifying feature as we once thought as it appears in various forms on swords from many different times and places. In any event, one reason I wanted to wait is because we've recently been fortunate to have some new Thai members who have been very helpful, and I'm hopeful they'll come forward with some information. (PUFF, are you out there? ).

19th July 2006, 09:09 AM	#11
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Yes, I was around for some time. At my first glance, I feel these two blades are not Siamese. Both of them are likely to be from Burma side. But as you mentioned, many elements are interchangable between ethnic groups. The first one 's quite obvious Shan/Tai style blade. The fuller 's running to the tip 's quite rare for Siamese. Although its handle 's longer than many Burmese Dha. Shan/Tai Dha with longer hilt 's not very uncommon. From the first glance, facetted furrule and flat/fat lotus of the second one remind me Tai origin. However, some Siamese Dahb also decorated with octagonal furrule. And the flat/fat lotus 's not very big (Tai 's Dha usually carry bigger lotus). It 's also possible to be Siamese origin. One impotant point 's in scabbard decoration. Stye of the lotus petal can be associated with LanChang people. Which was covered the north-eastern area of Thailand. So, another possibility 's Lao origin or craftmanship.

20th July 2006, 03:18 AM	#12
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Charles, A very helpful source to me for very roughly dating some daab is the book I think I told you about at Timonium - Punjabhan, Silverware in Thailand, Rengorm Publishing, Bangkok (1991) ISBN 9748869563. It has photos of several daab in museums, classified at least generally by era/area. By staring at them long enough I began to pick out the similarities among the Ayutthaya, Ratanakosin, Lanna, etc. styles. Still very general (the Ayutthaya Period covers about 500-600 years, and as Andrew said, the Ratanakosin era starting in the mid-18th century and up to the present day). A couple things I noticed are that Ayutthaya period daab tended to have larger lotus pommels than Ratanakosin (which sometimes just had a very small bulge at the pommel). Both Ratanakosin & Aytthaya seem to have concave ferrules (sweeping inward), while Lanna style has convex ferrule (sort of bell shaped or bulging outward). Ratankosin daab seem to have quite long handles, Ayutthaya a little less so. The "conch" style pommel seems to appear a lot in the Lanna style. The Lanna daab also have a fairly distinct vegetal decoration, or stylized vegetal decoration (like the one of mine Andrew posted). But these are just my own crude observations, based on a very few photographs. I learn a little something new every time Puff posts. This time it was that ferrules running to the end of the blade are rare in Siamese daab, and the Lan Chang lotus style.