Genuine crusader blade?

ariel · 29th October 2008, 07:11 PM

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/...lenotsupported
Just ended.
Questions:
-Is it Abyssinian or some other African ?
- Are the markings genuine medieval European?

Tim Simmons · 29th October 2008, 07:19 PM

Looks like a standard Kaskara like trade blade to me,19th century. Horn of Africa, Arabian penisula.

stekemest · 29th October 2008, 07:36 PM

The cross is definately a european symbol which can often be seen on medieval swords, but the quality of the carving is too bad here. While it is not easy to judge an object by pictures only, I don't think this blade is too old.

Peter

Jim McDougall · 29th October 2008, 08:06 PM

While looking at this unusual piece, I will say that the blade does seem commensurate with kaskara type trade blades of the 19th century, and that these blades of varying type in degree did enter Abyssinia and across the trade caravan systems of the Sahara.

What is interesting is the deep maker/guild stamp at the forte on this blade, which suggests, along with the seemingly present age pitting, that this might well be from much earlier. Although I have not yet checked into resources on markings, these interesting stamped configurations occur on many European blades from 16th century on, though many are degenerated to being even more indistinct with age and wear.

The cross and orb is indeed a European feature often seen on blades of 17th through 18th century, but as noted, this crude inscribed interpretation is clearly native work, and in imitation of that quality inspired European mark.
The script or calligraphy inscribed, I would say may be of Abyssinian form, but again, have not checked resources.

It seems that the stamped marking resembles earlier Italian types, but of course may be Solingen as well, and again, if Abyssinian provenance here, could be from either. The hilt obviously is much more recent than the blade, and appearing interpretive of earlier typology, may well be regalia intended.

A very intriguing sword, well worthy of further research!

Best regards,
Jim

RSWORD · 29th October 2008, 09:23 PM

I had an interest in this piece until the price shot up like it did but I thought the blade intriguing and when looking at zoom shots of the blade felt it very well could be a fairly early blade, maybe 16th or 17th century. The stamped marking had very deep patina and the fuller which runs just halfway down the blade is another configuration found on earlier blades. The marking looked familiar and I think a bit of research should reveal something. The hilt and scabbard appeared 19th century on the close up zooms but atypical but interesting. All in all, I thought it was a very attractive sword.

Jim McDougall · 30th October 2008, 06:22 AM

In checking further in "Armi Bianche Italiene" (L.Boccia & E. Coelho, 1975, Milan), there is further confirmation of these deep stamped markings as seen on the forte (termed 'twig marks' by Sir James Mann, in "Wallace Collections"). These occur in groupings, or singly (also noted Mann, p.255), and are noted as commonly on Italian blades.
While these markings do go back to the early 16th century in some cases, and into the early 17th on rapier blades, these heavier blades are more found on swords such as the schiavona 17th, through the 18th century. Perhaps This blade may be of that period.

The cross and orb, as noted, is taken from both Italian and German versions of 16th and 17th century. The roughly inscribed example on this blade takes the line of the cross through the circle entirely...contrary to most European markings where the line stops halfway at the midpoint of the orb. Again, this simply suggests native application.

I cannot be certain of the script on the blade, but it does appear to be either Ge'ez or very close (to my linguistically untrained eye ) , and I would defer to our linguists on that. I could only identify one repeated letter or fidel which seems Amharic.

The embossed work on the scabbard mounts and hilt resembles some Yemeni weapons I have seen , and contact between these regions and Ethiopia is seen in the influences of a number of swords motif and blades.

Some interesting potential with this one

and I hope we get the chance to follow it.

Best regards,
Jim

29th October 2008, 07:11 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Genuine crusader blade? http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/...lenotsupported Just ended. Questions: -Is it Abyssinian or some other African ? - Are the markings genuine medieval European?

29th October 2008, 07:19 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Looks like a standard Kaskara like trade blade to me,19th century. Horn of Africa, Arabian penisula.

29th October 2008, 07:36 PM	#3
stekemest Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 182	The cross is definately a european symbol which can often be seen on medieval swords, but the quality of the carving is too bad here. While it is not easy to judge an object by pictures only, I don't think this blade is too old. Peter

29th October 2008, 08:06 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,769	While looking at this unusual piece, I will say that the blade does seem commensurate with kaskara type trade blades of the 19th century, and that these blades of varying type in degree did enter Abyssinia and across the trade caravan systems of the Sahara. What is interesting is the deep maker/guild stamp at the forte on this blade, which suggests, along with the seemingly present age pitting, that this might well be from much earlier. Although I have not yet checked into resources on markings, these interesting stamped configurations occur on many European blades from 16th century on, though many are degenerated to being even more indistinct with age and wear. The cross and orb is indeed a European feature often seen on blades of 17th through 18th century, but as noted, this crude inscribed interpretation is clearly native work, and in imitation of that quality inspired European mark. The script or calligraphy inscribed, I would say may be of Abyssinian form, but again, have not checked resources. It seems that the stamped marking resembles earlier Italian types, but of course may be Solingen as well, and again, if Abyssinian provenance here, could be from either. The hilt obviously is much more recent than the blade, and appearing interpretive of earlier typology, may well be regalia intended. A very intriguing sword, well worthy of further research! Best regards, Jim

29th October 2008, 09:23 PM	#5
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	I had an interest in this piece until the price shot up like it did but I thought the blade intriguing and when looking at zoom shots of the blade felt it very well could be a fairly early blade, maybe 16th or 17th century. The stamped marking had very deep patina and the fuller which runs just halfway down the blade is another configuration found on earlier blades. The marking looked familiar and I think a bit of research should reveal something. The hilt and scabbard appeared 19th century on the close up zooms but atypical but interesting. All in all, I thought it was a very attractive sword.

30th October 2008, 06:22 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,769	In checking further in "Armi Bianche Italiene" (L.Boccia & E. Coelho, 1975, Milan), there is further confirmation of these deep stamped markings as seen on the forte (termed 'twig marks' by Sir James Mann, in "Wallace Collections"). These occur in groupings, or singly (also noted Mann, p.255), and are noted as commonly on Italian blades. While these markings do go back to the early 16th century in some cases, and into the early 17th on rapier blades, these heavier blades are more found on swords such as the schiavona 17th, through the 18th century. Perhaps This blade may be of that period. The cross and orb, as noted, is taken from both Italian and German versions of 16th and 17th century. The roughly inscribed example on this blade takes the line of the cross through the circle entirely...contrary to most European markings where the line stops halfway at the midpoint of the orb. Again, this simply suggests native application. I cannot be certain of the script on the blade, but it does appear to be either Ge'ez or very close (to my linguistically untrained eye ) , and I would defer to our linguists on that. I could only identify one repeated letter or fidel which seems Amharic. The embossed work on the scabbard mounts and hilt resembles some Yemeni weapons I have seen , and contact between these regions and Ethiopia is seen in the influences of a number of swords motif and blades. Some interesting potential with this one and I hope we get the chance to follow it. Best regards, Jim