Chinese sword breaker I hope it's real

josh stout · 16th July 2010, 02:37 AM

I just acquired this on eBay, and it looks genuine. I have never seen one so nice.
Josh

Lew · 16th July 2010, 03:17 AM

Josh

I was watching that one but I am always suspicious when it comes to buying Chinese weapons with so many replicas out there. It looks good though congrats.

Vaarok · 16th July 2010, 04:09 AM

I'd be very curious to see, more clearly, what look like inscriptions on the blade. I get a Thai vibe from it, but I've got a friend who's deeply into collecting Thai weapons, so I might just be hallucinating.

Nathaniel · 16th July 2010, 05:14 AM

Interesting piece there Josh. I'm not expert, but it looks nice. I don't know about Thai, Varook, but always hard to say as there where so many Chinese communities outside of China and Chinese influence rubbed off in many ways through out Asia ...there are a lot of Asian's who have some Chinese blood in them from one or both sides of the family. A lot of the ethnic Chinese smiths in SEA. Thanks for sharing Josh

KuKulzA28 · 16th July 2010, 06:24 AM

I'm pretty new to these... Could someone please tell me, what's the difference between the "sword-breakers" and the thin "stick-maces"? Thanks.

josh stout · 16th July 2010, 04:27 PM

I use the term “sword breaker” as a term for its function. Technically this is a jian, with a different inflection than “jian” the two edged sword. Jian have a square cross section. Other terms are “bian” or an “iron whip”, which seems to refer to round cross sectioned sword breakers, and “taiji” or iron ruler for rectangular ruler like weapons, often with Chinese inch marks.

I am worried because my Chinese friends say it is a fake. I am hoping they are wrong, but usually they are correct.

A South East Asian origin is an interesting hypothesis. I don’t see anything that is clearly not Chinese, but then again Chinese sword breakers are almost never that ornate. It may be why my friends are doubtful. Often Chinese influenced things from the SEA region will be more ornate than originals. I will see if there is any way to tell when I get it. I don’t think there are any inscriptions.

There was a time when the Chinese liked fake antiques to look as new as possible. Then there was a time when they were ham handed with fake patinas that you could spot from a mile away. Now they seem to have learned the art of carful distressing and aging of materials in a way that is making it tough to evaluate authenticity. The trickiest examples are often then sold through some of the less careful Western dealers.
Josh

KuKulzA28 · 16th July 2010, 05:06 PM

Ooooh, ok, thank you! Regardless, even if not authentic and old, if it's tight and sturdy, and made of good materials, I'm sure it'd be able to carry out it's intended self-defensive purposes.

fearn · 16th July 2010, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by josh stout

I use the term “sword breaker” as a term for its function. Technically this is a jian, with a different inflection than “jian” the two edged sword. Jian have a square cross section. Other terms are “bian” or an “iron whip”, which seems to refer to round cross sectioned sword breakers, and “taiji” or iron ruler for rectangular ruler like weapons, often with Chinese inch marks.

Hi Josh,

Hope it's a good piece, genuine or not. Personally, I'd love to see one of these in action, just to see if it really can break a sword. My bet is it can't, unless the sword is thin, and its wielder is incautious enough to do a strong block with it.

Still, it's a neat weapon. I privately call these things "quad swords." It's not an official term, but it gets across the idea of the four sharpened corners quite well.

One amusing side note: my uncle has an antique (and perfectly usable) knife hone that looks very much like this, although his has six edges, rather than four. The amusing thought is that a sword breaker might actually make the opponent's sword sharper if the met at the right angle.

Best,

F

Gavin Nugent · 16th July 2010, 10:19 PM

Hi Josh,

I like it, but saying that I wouldn't have bought it based on a few aspects.

I like the taper to the shaft and the way the dragon mouth opens around it, I even like some of the patina seen in the mouth.

My personal views, I don't like to differing patina or the colour of the patina to the fittings, this appears both incorrect and artifically aged to me. I have troubles with the colour and poor 'rolled' application of the grip covering and I personally would have expected it to have binding to the hilt, sure it could have been lost but there is no evidence of it ever being and the condition also says that it should still be there.

Over all it is an attractive piece and I look forward to hearing from those more knowledgable.

Gav

josh stout · 17th July 2010, 03:47 PM

It is a certainly a fake. I just saw a set of two that are the same construction.

Josh

Gavin Nugent · 18th July 2010, 09:42 AM

Sorry to hear it Josh. I don't know how much you payed for it? I am sure there is a lot of benefit you can gain for future buys by looking very close at these modern representations in the hand.

Gav

katana · 18th July 2010, 01:34 PM

Sorry too, that this is a fake

.....it seems that the Chinese are making 'patina' an art form.

....but I also have reservations about the functionallity of this type of sword breaker. My main concern is the lack of a guard ......a blade could easily slide down the 'spike' striking the hand of the wielder

(the dragon's mouth/ small square guard provides very little protection from this).
I understand that Sai , with their 'upturned' guard could also 'capture' the blade. Why, would a sword breaker not have this simple addition which would make it much more effective

and 'safer' for the user.

Regards David

Gavin Nugent · 18th July 2010, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Sorry too, that this is a fake

.....it seems that the Chinese are making 'patina' an art form.

....but I also have reservations about the functionallity of this type of sword breaker. My main concern is the lack of a guard ......a blade could easily slide down the 'spike' striking the hand of the wielder

(the dragon's mouth/ small square guard provides very little protection from this).
I understand that Sai , with their 'upturned' guard could also 'capture' the blade. Why, would a sword breaker not have this simple addition which would make it much more effective

and 'safer' for the user.

Regards David

David,

Perhaps a little something like this piece?

Gav

fernando · 18th July 2010, 02:07 PM

Hi David

You mean something like this?
A sword breaker, also called left hand dagger used in Junks.
This is a Far East specimen, denoting some Portuguese influence.
Dated XVIII/XIX century (Collection Rainer Daehnhardt).

Fernando

-

fernando · 18th July 2010, 02:09 PM

I see Gav came faster than me

Gavin Nugent · 18th July 2010, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi David

You mean something like this?
A sword breaker, also called left hand dagger used in Junks.
This is a Far East specimen, denoting some Portuguese influence.
Dated XVIII/XIX century (Collection Rainer Daehnhardt).

Fernando

-

Well done Fernando, I got in by a nose. Nice image you present. My personal opinion is that your example presented it more likely 1850-60, just a hunch

katana · 19th July 2010, 02:04 PM

Thanks Gav and 'Nando

,
I was thinking of the less sophisticated version posted by Fernando. Gav the example you posted suggests that some sword breakers were a 'dedicated' weapon. I had assumed that the Sai 'type' were used like a 'main gauche' with a sword (or similar) held by the other hand. I know in Martial art 'forms' ....the Sai is used on its own or in pairs......but I cannot imagine an individual, on a battlefield using two, as his main weapon of choice.

Kind Regards David

Gavin Nugent · 19th July 2010, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Thanks Gav and 'Nando

,
I was thinking of the less sophisticated version posted by Fernando. Gav the example you posted suggests that some sword breakers were a 'dedicated' weapon. I had assumed that the Sai 'type' were used like a 'main gauche' with a sword (or similar) held by the other hand. I know in Martial art 'forms' ....the Sai is used on its own or in pairs......but I cannot imagine an individual, on a battlefield using two, as his main weapon of choice.

Kind Regards David

David, they certainly were a 'dedicated' weapon of old and could disable with or without killing. This example probably had the same origins as the 'Sai' that were a farming impliment originally.
The Sai, I could see them used in rural setting or as a secondry defense in pairs by perhaps an enforcment official or similar but I think in the battle field the sword and shield or long pole weapons where the first choice.
I like the one Fernando presented, the centre shaft could create more damage to a swords edge, something sword owners hate

Gav

josh stout · 26th July 2010, 04:53 PM

Well the seller has offered a refund, so hopefully all will end well.

As indicated by the title of the thread, I had my suspicions, but was hoping to get lucky.

Surprisingly, the jian was quite well made and looked almost as good in person as it did in the pictures. The fake patina was well done, though it had a glazed look that was odd. Inside the mouth was redder as apposed to the black I would expect, but looked good. The one telltale was a distinct smell off acid when I put my nose to the dragon's mouth.

Interestingly it was well balanced and felt quite lively. It was longer and lighter than originals while maintaining enough heft to feel effective. It's too bad the originals don't look this nice

Most Chinese sword breakers are quite simple with a multifaceted "nut" forming the guard and the pommel. The guard would only have given minimal protection.

Chinese sai are a very different weapon.

I have two "Chinese sai" (sometimes called "gen") of differing construction. One has a narrower guard about the size and shape of my thumb and forefinger forming the letter C. It is nicely finished with brass fittings making me think it is a more sophisticated form than the village pieces. The other is a village piece with a guard like a shallow omega. The guard is almost twice as large, and made of steel forged around the central rod. It is much heavier than the one with brass fittings. Clearly it was well designed for trapping and breaking.

Both the jian sword breakers and the gen can occasionally be found in sets of two, but singles are more common. They were stand-alone weapons, easy to conceal and carry regularly. I think the breaking function worked best when blocking an edged weapon. I doubt many swords snapped as such but the edge damage would be tremendous. Some of my breakers show nicks where they were hit by an edge. I imagine the apposing blade was not in good shape afterward.
Josh

16th July 2010, 02:37 AM	#1
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	Chinese sword breaker I hope it's real I just acquired this on eBay, and it looks genuine. I have never seen one so nice. Josh Attached Images

16th July 2010, 10:19 PM	#9
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Nice Hi Josh, I like it, but saying that I wouldn't have bought it based on a few aspects. I like the taper to the shaft and the way the dragon mouth opens around it, I even like some of the patina seen in the mouth. My personal views, I don't like to differing patina or the colour of the patina to the fittings, this appears both incorrect and artifically aged to me. I have troubles with the colour and poor 'rolled' application of the grip covering and I personally would have expected it to have binding to the hilt, sure it could have been lost but there is no evidence of it ever being and the condition also says that it should still be there. Over all it is an attractive piece and I look forward to hearing from those more knowledgable. Gav

18th July 2010, 09:42 AM	#11
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Sorry to hear it Sorry to hear it Josh. I don't know how much you payed for it? I am sure there is a lot of benefit you can gain for future buys by looking very close at these modern representations in the hand. Gav

18th July 2010, 02:07 PM	#14
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,639	Hi David You mean something like this? A sword breaker, also called left hand dagger used in Junks. This is a Far East specimen, denoting some Portuguese influence. Dated XVIII/XIX century (Collection Rainer Daehnhardt). Fernando - Attached Images

16th July 2010, 03:17 AM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Josh I was watching that one but I am always suspicious when it comes to buying Chinese weapons with so many replicas out there. It looks good though congrats.

16th July 2010, 04:09 AM	#3
Vaarok Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 28	I'd be very curious to see, more clearly, what look like inscriptions on the blade. I get a Thai vibe from it, but I've got a friend who's deeply into collecting Thai weapons, so I might just be hallucinating.

16th July 2010, 05:14 AM	#4
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Interesting piece there Josh. I'm not expert, but it looks nice. I don't know about Thai, Varook, but always hard to say as there where so many Chinese communities outside of China and Chinese influence rubbed off in many ways through out Asia ...there are a lot of Asian's who have some Chinese blood in them from one or both sides of the family. A lot of the ethnic Chinese smiths in SEA. Thanks for sharing Josh

16th July 2010, 06:24 AM	#5
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	I'm pretty new to these... Could someone please tell me, what's the difference between the "sword-breakers" and the thin "stick-maces"? Thanks.

16th July 2010, 04:27 PM	#6
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	I use the term “sword breaker” as a term for its function. Technically this is a jian, with a different inflection than “jian” the two edged sword. Jian have a square cross section. Other terms are “bian” or an “iron whip”, which seems to refer to round cross sectioned sword breakers, and “taiji” or iron ruler for rectangular ruler like weapons, often with Chinese inch marks. I am worried because my Chinese friends say it is a fake. I am hoping they are wrong, but usually they are correct. A South East Asian origin is an interesting hypothesis. I don’t see anything that is clearly not Chinese, but then again Chinese sword breakers are almost never that ornate. It may be why my friends are doubtful. Often Chinese influenced things from the SEA region will be more ornate than originals. I will see if there is any way to tell when I get it. I don’t think there are any inscriptions. There was a time when the Chinese liked fake antiques to look as new as possible. Then there was a time when they were ham handed with fake patinas that you could spot from a mile away. Now they seem to have learned the art of carful distressing and aging of materials in a way that is making it tough to evaluate authenticity. The trickiest examples are often then sold through some of the less careful Western dealers. Josh

16th July 2010, 05:06 PM	#7
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Ooooh, ok, thank you! Regardless, even if not authentic and old, if it's tight and sturdy, and made of good materials, I'm sure it'd be able to carry out it's intended self-defensive purposes.

17th July 2010, 03:47 PM	#10
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	It is a certainly a fake. I just saw a set of two that are the same construction. Josh

18th July 2010, 01:34 PM	#12
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Sorry too, that this is a fake .....it seems that the Chinese are making 'patina' an art form. ....but I also have reservations about the functionallity of this type of sword breaker. My main concern is the lack of a guard ......a blade could easily slide down the 'spike' striking the hand of the wielder (the dragon's mouth/ small square guard provides very little protection from this). I understand that Sai , with their 'upturned' guard could also 'capture' the blade. Why, would a sword breaker not have this simple addition which would make it much more effective and 'safer' for the user. Regards David

18th July 2010, 02:09 PM	#15
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,639	I see Gav came faster than me

19th July 2010, 02:04 PM	#17
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thanks Gav and 'Nando , I was thinking of the less sophisticated version posted by Fernando. Gav the example you posted suggests that some sword breakers were a 'dedicated' weapon. I had assumed that the Sai 'type' were used like a 'main gauche' with a sword (or similar) held by the other hand. I know in Martial art 'forms' ....the Sai is used on its own or in pairs......but I cannot imagine an individual, on a battlefield using two, as his main weapon of choice. Kind Regards David

26th July 2010, 04:53 PM	#19
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	Well the seller has offered a refund, so hopefully all will end well. As indicated by the title of the thread, I had my suspicions, but was hoping to get lucky. Surprisingly, the jian was quite well made and looked almost as good in person as it did in the pictures. The fake patina was well done, though it had a glazed look that was odd. Inside the mouth was redder as apposed to the black I would expect, but looked good. The one telltale was a distinct smell off acid when I put my nose to the dragon's mouth. Interestingly it was well balanced and felt quite lively. It was longer and lighter than originals while maintaining enough heft to feel effective. It's too bad the originals don't look this nice Most Chinese sword breakers are quite simple with a multifaceted "nut" forming the guard and the pommel. The guard would only have given minimal protection. Chinese sai are a very different weapon. I have two "Chinese sai" (sometimes called "gen") of differing construction. One has a narrower guard about the size and shape of my thumb and forefinger forming the letter C. It is nicely finished with brass fittings making me think it is a more sophisticated form than the village pieces. The other is a village piece with a guard like a shallow omega. The guard is almost twice as large, and made of steel forged around the central rod. It is much heavier than the one with brass fittings. Clearly it was well designed for trapping and breaking. Both the jian sword breakers and the gen can occasionally be found in sets of two, but singles are more common. They were stand-alone weapons, easy to conceal and carry regularly. I think the breaking function worked best when blocking an edged weapon. I doubt many swords snapped as such but the edge damage would be tremendous. Some of my breakers show nicks where they were hit by an edge. I imagine the apposing blade was not in good shape afterward. Josh