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Old 9th February 2016, 07:47 AM   #1
cornelistromp
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Default historically important helmet of Gilbert von Saint Hilaire resurfaced

Incredible that there is absolutely no consultation between the various museums or auction houses and museums.

recently a historically important long lost helmet was auctioned as part of 3/4 field armour , which belongs to a suit of armour of Gilbert de Saint Hilaire in the Heeresgeschichtliches Museum in Vienna.

Even more remarkable is that absolutely nothing of above in the description can be found.

The new owner found himself in possession of a an extremely lucky hit, as important pieces like this are never offered in the arms & armour market.

please see

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21081

best,
Jasper

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Old 9th February 2016, 08:42 AM   #2
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Again an invaluable assistance From Jasper,Yesterday night he has called me to inform me about the unbelievable discovery he has made. I wrote this thread to find some old catalogues or books about this armour. But never I would hope for nothing more than that. What about when Jasper confesses that the armour its not his real field of knowledge !
May be thousands of collectors have seen this helmet but nobody noticed this before and without JASPER the link with the suit of armour of Gilbert de Saint Hilaire in the Heeresgeschichtliches Museum in Vienna would be lost.


Thank you so much Jasper !

Ps Now there is one more thing you could do for me would be to find a paint from Gilbert de Saint Hilaire.
Ok it ‘s a dream but ...

Best
Jean-Luc
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Old 10th February 2016, 06:33 PM   #3
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Wow! That´s Amazing jean-Luc! Congratulations!!
And pros to Jasper for finding out!!!

Cheers
Andreas
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Old 13th February 2016, 06:34 PM   #4
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Default EXTRA PICTURES

EXTRA PICTURES
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Old 13th February 2016, 06:36 PM   #5
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MORE
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Old 13th February 2016, 07:16 PM   #6
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Thank You for the high detailed pictures Jean Luc,
The Helmet is simply amazing, superb quality of etching + engraving, a beautiful design and there is no doubt here, its all Original, congratulations!

About the painting, I've got a feeling you wont have to wait for to long

Kind regards

Ulfberth
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Old 13th February 2016, 09:16 PM   #7
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Hi Dirk,
Thank you for your comments ,hoping you have a good feeling.
Best
Jean-Luc
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Old 14th March 2016, 01:24 PM   #8
Terry K
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Unbelievable find!
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Old 23rd March 2016, 09:45 AM   #9
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Default Maker ‘s mark of 3 circles

On the helmet and harness from Gilbert de Saint Hilaire I have found the same Maker ‘s mark of 3 circles in both elements .
May be a member has already saw similar marks on Nuremberg armour?

Best

Cerjak
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Old 23rd March 2016, 06:13 PM   #10
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Same three circles also occur on a Nuremberg Morion dated to ca. 1580 in the Wallace Collection (A 115, Mann, Vol. 1 , p. 117 and marks in Vol. 2, p. 686)
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Old 16th May 2017, 03:38 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerjak
Same three circles also occur on a Nuremberg Morion dated to ca. 1580 in the Wallace Collection (A 115, Mann, Vol. 1 , p. 117 and marks in Vol. 2, p. 686)

Katalog Der K. Und K. Heeres-Museums
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Old 22nd September 2019, 12:44 PM   #12
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Default F. Muller & Co., Amsterdam, 26 April 1911

It took a lot of time but finally I found the catalog of this sale !
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Old 22nd September 2019, 07:42 PM   #13
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Congratulations again, Jean-Luc, on finding the provenance on this amazing piece! One could only be so lucky!
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Old 23rd September 2019, 05:50 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerjak
It took a lot of time but finally I found the catalog of this sale !
Well done!

PS. Check your email, I think you missed my last reply...
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Old 24th September 2019, 05:22 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M ELEY
Congratulations again, Jean-Luc, on finding the provenance on this amazing piece! One could only be so lucky!

Thank you very much for you comment
the research is not yet completed I still have to find the sales catalogue of Charassé, rue Bonaparte, Paris, circa 1889 as well a painting of this noble man if exists.
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Old 25th September 2019, 11:31 AM   #16
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I just read the catalogue description and I wonder what the state of research is meanwhile. On page 80 of the KuK catalogue (#11) the author (seems to) say in the footnote that the black and white armour in the Heeresmuseum is unlikely to be the one of Gilbert. Sadly a part of the footnote is missing (might be continued at page 81). If one want me to I can translate the whole footnote.
Is there any clarification or other findings on this?

Best
Andreas
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Old 26th September 2019, 08:55 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AHorsa
I just read the catalogue description and I wonder what the state of research is meanwhile. On page 80 of the KuK catalogue (#11) the author (seems to) say in the footnote that the black and white armour in the Heeresmuseum is unlikely to be the one of Gilbert. Sadly a part of the footnote is missing (might be continued at page 81). If one want me to I can translate the whole footnote.
Is there any clarification or other findings on this?

Best
Andreas

Dear andreas
The book could be downloaded here :
https://ia800703.us.archive.org/14/...g00erbegoog.pdf
of course the translation would be highly appreciated.
best

Jean-Luc
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Old 26th September 2019, 03:29 PM   #18
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Hi Jean-Luc,
I just wanted to join with others in congratulating you on acquiring a beautiful piece of history.
My Regards,
Norman.
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Old 27th September 2019, 09:22 AM   #19
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Hi Jean-Luc,

thanks for sharing the additional pages and the link.
The cut in the sentence was a bit unlucky It just says that it is unlikely that the armour mentioned in the early 19th century is the same as the present one. But the author doesn't know why the present one as well as "the older one" was attributed to Saint Hilaire.

I will translate the whole footnote once I am back home in the evening.

Beste regards
Andreas
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Old 27th September 2019, 02:56 PM   #20
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Here we go:

The oldest, in the archives of the city of Vienna preserved inventory of the bürgerliches Zeughaus, dates into 1686 and 1701, do not mention an armour of Saint-Hilaire and just as little there is a corresponding notice
in the register of the Kammerei-invoices until 1648 which contains all the weapon-acquisitions of the city which, as long as they refer to weapons, where published by Carl Uhlirz in the "Berichten und Mitteilungen des Alterthumsvereins zu Wien" , Bd. 27 to 31. Apfaltrer, in his 1740 published essay "Civicum Augusta Viennensium armamentarium", p. 23, indeed touches besides the liberation of King Ferdinand from his besetment through the estates/classes the part which Saint-Hilaire took at this, but he strikingly does not say that his cuirass is stored in the bürgerliches Zeughaus. Such a notice is not to find until Weiskern, "Topographie von Niederösterreich 3" (Vienna 1770), p. 103 and then also in Schweiger, "Andeutungen zur Geschichte des bürgerlichen Zeughauses in Wien" (Beiträge zur Landeskunde Oberösterreichs unter der Enns, 3. Bd., 1833), p. 33f., and as well in the, in the Archiv of the city of Vienna stored, Zeughaus-inventories of the years 1822,1835 and 1843. But, based on those vouchers, the alleged harness of Saint-Hilaire was displayed together with a horse-harness and following the inventory of 1822 it was <painted black allover and set with gold> and had a <spike-helmet with visor, collar, shoulder-, arm- and leg plate, breast and back, all in black and with golden stripes>. From this description it is unlikely, that the cuirass which was overtaken from the Heeresmuseum in 1866 and displayed here is identical to to that one which was put in the Bürgerliches Zeughaus under this name. Why the later one from the second half of the 18th century was attributed to Saint-Hilaire, we don't know. The stamp/makers mark shown at page 12 is not mentioned by Böheim, Nürnberger Waffenschmiede des 16. Jh; a similar one is shown in Cronau, Geschichte der Solinger Klingenindustrie, Table 1 No 3, namely supposedly from a Blade (?) dated to 1480 in the Germanisches Nationalmuseum in Nürnberg. There is no etched monogram on the cuirass. "

Last edited by AHorsa : 28th September 2019 at 07:58 AM.
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Old 28th September 2019, 05:22 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AHorsa
Here we go:

The oldest, in the archives of the city of Vienna preserved inventory of the bürgerliches Zeughaus, dates into 1686 and 1701, do not mention an armour of Saint-Hilaire and just as little there is a corresponding notice
in the register of the Kammerei-invoices until 1648 which contains all the weapon-acquisitions of the city which, as long as they refer to weapons, where published by Carl Uhlirz in the "Berichten und Mitteilungen des Alterthumsvereins zu Wien" , Bd. 27 to 31. Apfaltrer, in his 1740 published essay "Civicum Augusta Viennensium armamentarium", p. 23, indeed touches besides the liberation of King Ferdinand from his besetment through the estates/classes the part which Saint-Hilaire took at this, but he strikingly does not say that his cuirass is stored in the bürgerliches Zeughaus. Such a notice is not to find until Weiskern, "Topographie von Niederösterreich 3" (Vienna 1770), p. 103 and then also in Schweiger, "Andeutungen zur Geschichte des bürgerlichen Zeughauses in Wien" (Beiträge zur Landeskunde Oberösterreichs unter der Enns, 3. Bd., 1833), p. 33f., and as well in the in the Archiv of the city of Vienna stored Zeughaus-inventories of the years 1822,1835 and 1843. But, based on those vouchers, the alleged harness of Saint-Hilaire was displayed together with a horse-harness and following the inventory of 1822 it was <painted black allover and set with gold> and had a <spike-helmet with visor, collar, shoulder-, arm- and leg plate, breast and back, all in black and with golden stripes>. From this description it is unlikely, that the cuirass which was overtaken from the Heeresmuseum in 1866 and displayed here is identical to to that one which was put in the Bürgerliches Zeughaus under this name. Why the later one from the second half of the 18th century was attributed to Saint-Hilaire, we don't know. The stamp/makers mark shown at page 12 is not mentioned by Böheim, Nürnberger Waffenschmiede des 16. Jh; a similar one is shown in Cronau, Geschichte der Solinger Klingenindustrie, Table 1 No 3, namely supposedly from a Blade (?) dated to 1480 in the Germanisches Nationalmuseum in Nürnberg. There is no etched monogram on the cuirass. "

Dear Andreas

Thank you very much for te translation.
Best
Jean-Luc
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Old 28th September 2019, 10:31 AM   #22
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You are very welcome. I hope it's understandable.

Best regards
Andreas
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Old 30th September 2019, 02:29 PM   #23
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Default American Art Association, New York, 23 November 1928” lot 148

At last also illustrated in “ Dr Bashford Dean, Riverdale, New York, sold American Art Association, New York, 23 November 1928” lot 148 sold for 1000 us $
A real fortune for this period: For comparison as the same period the price of a Ford T was $290.
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