Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Keris Warung Kopi
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 17th September 2012, 09:43 AM   #1
satsujinken
Member
 
satsujinken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Surabaya - Indonesia
Posts: 197
Default keris jalak with rare pamor

Hi all

in spirit of sharing knowledge, here it is another keris of mine.

This keris is simple. What makes it nice is the pamor

I believe this dhapur is known as Jalak Ngore (CMIIW), and this one is not stained properly due to poor storage before

this one has "Unthuk Banyu / Unthuk Segara" pamor

Unthuk banyu means = froth / foam of water / sea water
it is believed this pamor will help in terms of relationship with others

this pamor is unique, apart from it is rarely seen, this kind of pamor along with time and maintenance, the different metal will corrode differently, and producing saw-like edges (can be seen in the pictures)

the "wood" powder you see in the pictures is sandalwood powder

about the age ... say this one has been someone's family heirloom for 30 years, so at least it is 30 years old

first, I have to borrow one pictures of friend of mine in Indonesian forum about similar keris, but thought to be made in 18th century, courtesy of Mr. Hidayat - so comparison can be made

pardon my pics as I took it using iphone

enjoy!!

regards
Donny
Attached Images
      
satsujinken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th September 2012, 11:59 PM   #2
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 6,245
Default

Fascinating pamor. Is the this recently made stuff?
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th September 2012, 12:16 AM   #3
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,766
Default

Looks like two different pamors to me, first one looks like balls of string ; yes, the second example's style has been done in recent times .

Both are not unknown in newer keris .
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th September 2012, 12:52 AM   #4
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,879
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by satsujinken
first, I have to borrow one pictures of friend of mine in Indonesian forum about similar keris, but thought to be made in 18th century, courtesy of Mr. Hidayat - so comparison can be made

Not sure just how much comparison can be made. I agree with Rick, these are not the same pamor patterns. Also agree that Donny's is current era.
Hard to say solely from photos of Mr. Hidayat's example. Lovely current era dress, but i am afraid i don't know how to spot a well made and expertly aged modern piece from the real thing strictly from a couple of photos. While complex pamors of this sort are known to have existed in older blades, well preserved examples such as this are few and far between. It (Mr. Hidayat's) is a beautiful keris regardless.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th September 2012, 08:13 AM   #5
satsujinken
Member
 
satsujinken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Surabaya - Indonesia
Posts: 197
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battara
Fascinating pamor. Is the this recently made stuff?


I believe so

newly made (kamardikan) in terms of keris could mean somewhere between 0 - 67 years

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Looks like two different pamors to me, first one looks like balls of string ; yes, the second example's style has been done in recent times .

Both are not unknown in newer keris .


I agree with you, as with books I attached below, the unthuk banyu pamor is confined within the blade, and in mine, it is becoming parts of the cutting edge.

you mean that the pamor, which like )))((( is the 1st pamor
and the spine consists of another ??

if so, what pamor do you think this keris is ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Not sure just how much comparison can be made. I agree with Rick, these are not the same pamor patterns. Also agree that Donny's is current era.
Hard to say solely from photos of Mr. Hidayat's example. Lovely current era dress, but i am afraid i don't know how to spot a well made and expertly aged modern piece from the real thing strictly from a couple of photos. While complex pamors of this sort are known to have existed in older blades, well preserved examples such as this are few and far between. It (Mr. Hidayat's) is a beautiful keris regardless.


if you see this example, http://agenbiteofinwit.com/keris2.html
and according to couple friend of mine, my keris above still categorised as unthuk banyu pamor

but I am agree that there are differences between both blades. Therefore, what pamor do you think it is ??

here's more pics and also a page from my book explaining about pamor unthuk banyu
Attached Images
     
satsujinken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th September 2012, 08:34 AM   #6
satsujinken
Member
 
satsujinken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Surabaya - Indonesia
Posts: 197
Default

continuing the story ...

this particular keris comes in pair ... there's another one in different dhapur but with the same types of pamor when I bought it

perhaps the previous owner needs popularity so bad as this type of pamor is believed to boost in relationships and popularity
pictures will be posted, soon
satsujinken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th September 2012, 02:30 AM   #7
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,879
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by satsujinken
if you see this example, http://agenbiteofinwit.com/keris2.html
and according to couple friend of mine, my keris above still categorised as unthuk banyu pamor

but I am agree that there are differences between both blades. Therefore, what pamor do you think it is ??

Your pamor does seem to be closer to the one in the above link.
As to what pamor to call Mr. Hidayat's keris, i couldn't really say. Personally i don't spend too much time trying to figure out pamor names since they tend to sometimes change from era to era, region to region and even village to village.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th September 2012, 04:12 AM   #8
satsujinken
Member
 
satsujinken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Surabaya - Indonesia
Posts: 197
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Your pamor does seem to be closer to the one in the above link.
As to what pamor to call Mr. Hidayat's keris, i couldn't really say. Personally i don't spend too much time trying to figure out pamor names since they tend to sometimes change from era to era, region to region and even village to village.


yeah, I know that
but in light of education, I personally tend to use familiar terms in books rather than following local dialects

now this is another keris, which comes with the jalak keris and definitely kamardikan (according to me)

any comment is welcome
Attached Images
      
satsujinken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th September 2012, 05:40 AM   #9
Richard Furrer
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin
Posts: 155
Default

From a bladesmith's point of view those two different pamor are quite wonderful. The first one is more difficult to forge than the second.
Well worth stealing those for my own work.
Thank you for posting them.

Ric
Richard Furrer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th September 2012, 06:56 AM   #10
satsujinken
Member
 
satsujinken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Surabaya - Indonesia
Posts: 197
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Furrer
From a bladesmith's point of view those two different pamor are quite wonderful. The first one is more difficult to forge than the second.
Well worth stealing those for my own work.
Thank you for posting them.

Ric


You're welcome, Ric

I have seen and held hundreds of keris, and still considered myself a newbie, and this type of pamor is rarely seen, perhaps due to the difficulty in making it

and your comment is similar with my first thought on this keris - how can they made something so intricate, yet so beautiful ... with limited resources compared to modern smiths

that's what driven me to preserve this blade
satsujinken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th September 2012, 01:19 PM   #11
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,879
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by satsujinken
I have seen and held hundreds of keris, and still considered myself a newbie, and this type of pamor is rarely seen, perhaps due to the difficulty in making it

and your comment is similar with my first thought on this keris - how can they made something so intricate, yet so beautiful ... with limited resources compared to modern smiths

that's what driven me to preserve this blade

Perhaps Donny, but i thought we were all in agreement that these examples are made by modern smiths...
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th September 2012, 01:32 PM   #12
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,289
Default

I don't think Hidayat's keris is recent David, I've only ever seen old examples of this pamor, also the style of the blade is an old style. I've got an example of this myself.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th September 2012, 04:42 PM   #13
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,879
Default

Thanks Alan. I wasn't making any serious challenge of this keris in regards to age, merely commenting that my ability to be able to judge the difference between an actual old example of this pamor and a newly made and expertly aged example solely based upon this photograph is basically nil. And it is a beauty regardless. A very intriguing and complex pamor in beautiful dress. In my comment above i was really referring to all the other examples shown which still seem to me to be a completely different pamor pattern than Hidayat's keris
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st September 2012, 05:29 AM   #14
satsujinken
Member
 
satsujinken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Surabaya - Indonesia
Posts: 197
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Thanks Alan. I wasn't making any serious challenge of this keris in regards to age, merely commenting that my ability to be able to judge the difference between an actual old example of this pamor and a newly made and expertly aged example solely based upon this photograph is basically nil. And it is a beauty regardless. A very intriguing and complex pamor in beautiful dress. In my comment above i was really referring to all the other examples shown which still seem to me to be a completely different pamor pattern than Hidayat's keris


agree with you .... to know, we must held it in our hand ... pictures does speak thousand words, but cannot substitute real handling

I spoke to my friend, a pande (blacksmith) here in Surabaya, he usually made daggers, dirks and scythe ... and he said that he cannot reproduce the blade or even make a blade with the same pamor ... too difficult he said
satsujinken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st September 2012, 05:12 PM   #15
Jussi M.
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 235
Default

Beautiful pamor.

Being able to make such a complex pamor in past days gone must had called for a truly experienced and/or gifted maker.

Very nice

Thanks,

J.
Jussi M. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd September 2012, 02:22 AM   #16
Richard Furrer
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin
Posts: 155
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussi M.
Beautiful pamor.

Being able to make such a complex pamor in past days gone must had called for a truly experienced and/or gifted maker.

Very nice

Thanks,

J.


Indeed...and good assistants...that is not a one man job.
Keep the pictures coming...you folk have shown me pamor I have never dreamed of...wonderful work.

Ric
Richard Furrer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd September 2012, 03:18 AM   #17
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,766
Smile Abstract ?

Here's a portion of a what I suspect is an uncontrolled pamor on a Wilah attributed to Pak Budi .
The black Iron has a couple of shades that I could not bring up with my limited image manipulation skills .
Attached Images
 
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd September 2012, 03:35 AM   #18
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,766
Smile A Planned Pamor

Presented in honor of its originator .
Attached Images
 
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd September 2012, 05:20 PM   #19
Atlantia
Member
 
Atlantia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
Default

Wonderful, beautiful and fascinating Keris gentlemen.
Atlantia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd September 2012, 08:46 PM   #20
Atlantia
Member
 
Atlantia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Presented in honor of its originator .



Hey Rick,

Whats the deal with that really BLACK stain?
I've got a Keris with a really complex pamor that has a similar very black stain.
Atlantia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd September 2012, 11:26 PM   #21
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,289
Default

Pamor colour depends on four things:-

1)--- material

2)--- the skill of the person doing the stain

3)--- the materials available to carry out the stain job

4)--- the weather


these four factors provide the answer to every variation noted in the colour of stained blades
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th September 2012, 01:03 AM   #22
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,766
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlantia
Hey Rick,

Whats the deal with that really BLACK stain?
I've got a Keris with a really complex pamor that has a similar very black stain.


I think Alan covered it buddy .
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th September 2012, 05:26 AM   #23
satsujinken
Member
 
satsujinken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Surabaya - Indonesia
Posts: 197
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Pamor colour depends on four things:-

1)--- material

2)--- the skill of the person doing the stain

3)--- the materials available to carry out the stain job

4)--- the weather


these four factors provide the answer to every variation noted in the colour of stained blades


CMIIW, as I am a newbie in this field, but as far as I know, balinese tend to stain their blade blacker than javanese keris ? my friend here named the style of staining of balinese keris as dongsalibing

the final result is the balinese keris is much darker and smoother than its javanese counterparts

I may be wrong, as I never encounter this information on any books, but from several friend of mine, who are in this field for couple of decades

look at the comparison below, keris bali first, keris jawa second
Attached Images
  
satsujinken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th September 2012, 05:48 PM   #24
Atlantia
Member
 
Atlantia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
Default

Alan, Rick, Satsujinken

Thanks gentlemen, I apprecaite the help. It's always a learning curve for me in the Keris section
Atlantia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th September 2012, 09:16 PM   #25
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,289
Default

Donny, the reason that Balinese blades often appear to be darker than Javanese and other blades is because Balinese blades do not have a textured surface.

The factors that I have listed do cover the reasons for blade colour.

Here is a link to a blade that I made some years ago.

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/PBXIImaisey2.html

It is a Javanese form, but a Balinese finish. If I had done a textured finish to the surface of this blade it would not appear so dark. However, some Javanese blades even with a textured surface can be pretty dark, its all about the factors that I've listed. Use the "INDEX" tab on the linked page and and you can see recent blades made by other craftsmen working in Surakarta 20 years ago:- some are very black, others are not.

One thing is true:- you cannot alter the colour of the material with which a blade is made. Most older blades are simply impossible to get really black. Really old blades often have pamor that provides contrast by use of high phosphorus and low phosphorus irons, and all you ever get there is dark grey and light grey.

Moderators:- my apologies for the linked pages, but I do not have these photos on file any longer, and I'm not going to photograph them again.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th September 2012, 11:22 PM   #26
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,879
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Moderators:- my apologies for the linked pages, but I do not have these photos on file any longer, and I'm not going to photograph them again.

Understood Alan, but now you are required never to take this page down.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th September 2012, 12:36 AM   #27
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,289
Default

I probably will take it down as soon as I have time to do better photos --- which will not be some time soon --- I can now produce better images than these ones, but the replacement page will be the same content as the present one.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th September 2012, 03:37 AM   #28
satsujinken
Member
 
satsujinken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Surabaya - Indonesia
Posts: 197
Default

if it's up to me, I will send you invitation to come to Indonesia, grant you honorary citizenship, grant you title "living national treasure" and build you a school solely on the study of tosan aji
and will pay you well to pass on your knowledge ...

sadly it's just a dream ...

i love the way you answered directly using technical terms. Nobody ever taught me the composition of pamor made by low and high phosphorus content in iron ... all I know was pamor is mainly made from nickel, some meteorites and so on

this kind of knowledge must be preserved ... do you ever wrote books on keris ? if so, where can I buy one ?

now i would like to ask ... in ancient times, how did empus selected materials for making keris (considering the shortage of good quality iron back then ? is it like making tamahagane for japanese sword, where only the best materials are used for swords - lesser quality ones going to be housewares / gardening tools.

i have tons of questions and I hope you don't mind sparing some time to share your knowledge

thank you
regards
donny
satsujinken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th September 2012, 03:52 AM   #29
satsujinken
Member
 
satsujinken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Surabaya - Indonesia
Posts: 197
Default

on other case, if you haven't heard it

news released only recently in early september 2012

Surakarta will provide IDR 30 billion budget to build Keris Museum
there are some serious talks and the government seemed to be agreeing the proposal

it is planned to be study center for tosan aji, so that this precious heritage may be preserved for future generations (good that indonesians starting to value their heritage)

according to plan - it will be finished in 2015

I certainly hope to see you there someday
satsujinken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th September 2012, 03:45 PM   #30
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,879
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by satsujinken
i love the way you answered directly using technical terms. Nobody ever taught me the composition of pamor made by low and high phosphorus content in iron ... all I know was pamor is mainly made from nickel, some meteorites and so on

If you can find the work of Prof. Jerzy Piaskowski of Poland, he did some detailed analysis of old keris blades some time back that details this high and low phosphorous content in iron. The pamor patterns in these old blades did not come from nickel content. Not quite sure where you can get a hold of this research currently, but maybe others can help.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 03:09 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.