Another early shibriya

motan · 20th January 2017, 03:46 PM

Hello,
Few months ago, I showed a primitive and early shibriya in this forum (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=Shibriya). I like it a lot, and therefore, when I saw a similar one, I bought it immediately. This one is much larger (see picture of them together) and at 15", large for this type of dagger. It is difficult to say how old it is, but in my opinion these daggers appeared only around WWI, so an early date would be 1920's or 30's. The blade is narrow, long and made from an old file (see pics), because this was the best quality steel available to the makers. A similar one was discussed in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=Shibriya but pics are missing) . Unfortunately, the pommel ring and disk are missing, but the condition is reasonable+. This kind of shibriya is quite uncommon and I much prefer it to more "standard" types shown next to it in the last pictures, or even to higher quality ones made with niello and koftgiri work. Thaks for watching this thread.

ariel · 20th January 2017, 04:40 PM

Avner Yarom once introduced me to an old family friend, a collector of everything:-)
He had literally hundreds of old sharpies hanging on walls, under glass covers and just piled up in plastic baskets.

I still remember a humongous drawer filled to the brim with shibriyas.

Somebody could write a PhD or a full book with this drawer alone:-)

motan · 20th January 2017, 05:43 PM

Hi Ariel,
Shibriyas are not that common on the international market, mostly becuase of lack of familiarity and/or interest. The exception are contemporary tourist ones made in and around Amman, Jordan. I understand the lack of interest. After all these not exactly high points of Islamic craft, but I think that they are legitimate ethnographic items and they are fun to collect. Why? Because of the large variety of types and materials, including recycled "modern" materials like early plastics, electrical wires etc. Few devoted local collectors in Israel own hundreds of them which they bought for nearly nothing, including many old and unique examples. We do try to get more information on their history and development, but sources are lacking

A.alnakkas · 20th January 2017, 08:40 PM

Hey Motan,

I have been following your contributions with great interest and like you, I struggle with the lack of material. Shibriyas are usually simple, but some examples are quite nice. Is it the size or the blade that makes a dagger a shibriya? Arabs in all regions that use shibriyas (more wide spread than the levant) define it by the size. While Western collectors I notice to define it by blade type.

I like your older examples, rarely find them lately.

motan · 20th January 2017, 11:48 PM

Hi A.alnakkas,
Thanks for your sympathetic post. Unfortunately, I have no real answers. Shibr or shiber is an old Arab length unit denoting the distance between the tip of the pink and the tip of the thumb when the hand palm is fully spreat. This avarages 20cm (just under 8 inch). It is said that the name shibriya originates from this distance. While this could be true, it does not make practical sense because in most shibriyas the blade is shorter than 20cm, but the whole dagger is longer. Perhaps when the name stuck to the dagger, avarage blade length was 20cm, but even early shibriyas by the same maker vary greatly in size, as you can see above.
Shibriya is a name, not a definition, so like in most daggers, there is no absolute truth. Bedouin daggers with recurve blade are called shibriya by both collectors and local people. There are some mixed dharia/shibriya types from the Hijaz, but I don't know how local called them. There are also some mixed forms in from Syria. I think that all Syrian dagger are caller khanjar-the generic name for dagger in arabic. Other shibriya-like daggers from Palestine and also those from Majdal Shams are also called khanjar by local people (not jambiya, as they are often reffered to by collectors).
In photographs predating WWI, bedouin (bedu) carry daggers similar to the shibriya, but with specific curved blade shape that is popular in other daggers from the same period and area. I don't know how they were called. This rather lengthy post sumarizes what I know. I added some examples and old photos of this latter shibriya precursor type.
Regards, Eytan

ariel · 21st January 2017, 01:58 AM

Dog-leg.

Miguel · 28th January 2017, 03:37 PM

Hello Motan, I would like to thank you for posting this interesting thread about Shibriyas. I have a few in my collection and have never really been able to find out much detail about them such as age, which particular tribes carried them, are they a general purpose or fighting weapon or both, where did the design originate from etc etc.?

I don't understand why there is so little information about them it would appear that have been under the radar or the experts have not thought them worthy enough to study, I personally find them a very interesting and deadly weapon having its own unique shape.

Having searched through my own reference books the only one which mentioned this dagger was Elgood`s Arms and Armour of Arabia and this was only quoting someone else who had commented that some tribes in northern Arabia carried a short, narrow knife. The knife being a shibriya and a tribe called Rwala all very vague and no illustrations or photos despite there being dozens of Jambiya and Khanjar illustrations, why none of the Shibriya, I don't understand.

I have taken the liberty of showing some pics of my Shimbriyas and would be grateful for your comments as I know next to nothing about them.

Their O/Ls without scabbard vary between 11 and 11.75 ins.

No 1:- Very plain but I feel it to be an old one?

No 2:- Still very plain with some decoration on the hilt. Again I have a feeling that this may be an old one. I think that the pommel is also interesting having not seen one on other Shimbriyas.

No 3:- this is more decorative and modern having the date of 1370 AH on the blade which I think equates to 1950/51 AD.

No 4:- Again more decorative and modern possibly similar date to No 3?

No 5:- Very decorative with the date 1900? on the blade. I am not sure if this is a date or something else as the style seems to be more modern.

Miguel · 28th January 2017, 03:41 PM

Shabriya N0 5.

Richard G · 28th January 2017, 07:37 PM

Miguel,
I would be interested to know what the coin is on your shibriya no.5.
Regards
Richard

motan · 28th January 2017, 11:01 PM

Hi Miguel, Thanks for asking. I will comment on them one by one and that will take a while. I am not a very good expert on the subject, so don't take my comments as the truth but as an opinion.
As for the general lack of information, I think that shibriyas were not valued because they were primitive relative to other weapons from the surrounding areas (Syria for example), were low-grade workmanship and relatively recent. However, at least up to 1960, they were made mainly for local use and were carried by local tribesmen as well as by the soldiers of the Arab Legion. Even today, some bedouin wear them for festive or official occasions (like my good friend A'wad from the Azazme). Therefore, they are authentic ethnographic weapons and deserve at least some recognition. As for their use, they are definately weapons and not utility knifes (despite claims of the opposite) simply because they are shaped like pure stabbing weapons and are not much good for anything else. Like all Middle Eastern daggers, they are also man's juwelry and a symbol of manhood.

No. 1-Definately the oldest of the lot. Probably made in Jordan where the majority of shibriyas were made. This shape of pommel is known, but not very common. The long and relatively narrow blade is a sign of older ones (thanks Artzi). I would say it is from the late 1920's or from the 1930's. In pic 1 and 2, I show similar ones
No. 2-The most difficult to place and date for me. The style bears resemblance to a known type shown in pic 3. I believe that this one (as well as my example) are the only ones of the lot of Palestinian origin. I base this on the style of decoration on the scabbard which is definately Palestinian. The age is difficult to gues because I recognize stages only in the more common Jordanian types.
The rest tommorow. Eytan

ariel · 29th January 2017, 02:41 AM

There is a guy in Latvia named Denis Cherevichnik who is into history of knife fights around the world ( he even wrote a big book about it with deep analysis of literally hundreds of historical sources in several languages and spanning several centuries).

He published an article ( in Russian, unfortunately for most of the Forumites) about Sica, a dog-leg curved Roman ( or Dacian) dagger. To make the long story short, he makes connection between Sica and Shibria. Indeed, they look virtually identical. Whether it is a case of parallel development or of some atavistic feature is uncertain, but the idea is intriguing.

Miguel · 29th January 2017, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motan

Hi Miguel, Thanks for asking. I will comment on them one by one and that will take a while. I am not a very good expert on the subject, so don't take my comments as the truth but as an opinion.
As for the general lack of information, I think that shibriyas were not valued because they were primitive relative to other weapons from the surrounding areas (Syria for example), were low-grade workmanship and relatively recent. However, at least up to 1960, they were made mainly for local use and were carried by local tribesmen as well as by the soldiers of the Arab Legion. Even today, some bedouin wear them for festive or official occasions (like my good friend A'wad from the Azazme). Therefore, they are authentic ethnographic weapons and deserve at least some recognition. As for their use, they are definately weapons and not utility knifes (despite claims of the opposite) simply because they are shaped like pure stabbing weapons and are not much good for anything else. Like all Middle Eastern daggers, they are also man's juwelry and a symbol of manhood.

No. 1-Definately the oldest of the lot. Probably made in Jordan where the majority of shibriyas were made. This shape of pommel is known, but not very common. The long and relatively narrow blade is a sign of older ones (thanks Artzi). I would say it is from the late 1920's or from the 1930's. In
pic 1 and 2, I show similar ones
No. 2-The most difficult to place and date for me. The style bears resemblance to a known type shown in pic 3. I believe that this one (as well as my example) are the only ones of the lot of Palestinian origin. I base this on the style of decoration on the scabbard which is definately Palestinian. The age is difficult to gues because I recognize stages only in the more common Jordanian types.
The rest tommorow. Eytan

Hello Motan, Thank you for your interesting and enlightening comments and look forward to reading the rest when you have the time. One thing I should point out is that the pics are not in the order I posted them as they seem to have gotten mixed up. The first set of 3 pics is No 2 of my script, the second set is No 1, the third set is No 4, the fourth set is No 3 and the fith set of four pics is correct. I apologise for the mix up but I don't know how it happened.
Regards
Miguel

Miguel · 29th January 2017, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard G

Miguel,
I would be interested to know what the coin is on your shibriya no.5.
Regards
Richard

Hello Richard, I don't honestly know what the coin is but will try to find out.
Regards
Miguel

Miguel · 30th January 2017, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard G

Miguel,
I would be interested to know what the coin is on your shibriya no.5.
Regards
Richard

Hi Richard,

Eyetan has kindly answered your question in his latest reply.
Regards
Miguel

Richard G · 1st February 2017, 07:07 PM

Yes, and it all makes sense.
Thank you Miguel and Eytan.
Best wishes
Richard

20th January 2017, 03:46 PM	#1
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Another early shibriya Hello, Few months ago, I showed a primitive and early shibriya in this forum (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=Shibriya). I like it a lot, and therefore, when I saw a similar one, I bought it immediately. This one is much larger (see picture of them together) and at 15", large for this type of dagger. It is difficult to say how old it is, but in my opinion these daggers appeared only around WWI, so an early date would be 1920's or 30's. The blade is narrow, long and made from an old file (see pics), because this was the best quality steel available to the makers. A similar one was discussed in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=Shibriya but pics are missing) . Unfortunately, the pommel ring and disk are missing, but the condition is reasonable+. This kind of shibriya is quite uncommon and I much prefer it to more "standard" types shown next to it in the last pictures, or even to higher quality ones made with niello and koftgiri work. Thaks for watching this thread. Attached Images

20th January 2017, 05:43 PM	#3
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	To Ariel Hi Ariel, Shibriyas are not that common on the international market, mostly becuase of lack of familiarity and/or interest. The exception are contemporary tourist ones made in and around Amman, Jordan. I understand the lack of interest. After all these not exactly high points of Islamic craft, but I think that they are legitimate ethnographic items and they are fun to collect. Why? Because of the large variety of types and materials, including recycled "modern" materials like early plastics, electrical wires etc. Few devoted local collectors in Israel own hundreds of them which they bought for nearly nothing, including many old and unique examples. We do try to get more information on their history and development, but sources are lacking

20th January 2017, 11:48 PM	#5
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi A.alnakkas, Thanks for your sympathetic post. Unfortunately, I have no real answers. Shibr or shiber is an old Arab length unit denoting the distance between the tip of the pink and the tip of the thumb when the hand palm is fully spreat. This avarages 20cm (just under 8 inch). It is said that the name shibriya originates from this distance. While this could be true, it does not make practical sense because in most shibriyas the blade is shorter than 20cm, but the whole dagger is longer. Perhaps when the name stuck to the dagger, avarage blade length was 20cm, but even early shibriyas by the same maker vary greatly in size, as you can see above. Shibriya is a name, not a definition, so like in most daggers, there is no absolute truth. Bedouin daggers with recurve blade are called shibriya by both collectors and local people. There are some mixed dharia/shibriya types from the Hijaz, but I don't know how local called them. There are also some mixed forms in from Syria. I think that all Syrian dagger are caller khanjar-the generic name for dagger in arabic. Other shibriya-like daggers from Palestine and also those from Majdal Shams are also called khanjar by local people (not jambiya, as they are often reffered to by collectors). In photographs predating WWI, bedouin (bedu) carry daggers similar to the shibriya, but with specific curved blade shape that is popular in other daggers from the same period and area. I don't know how they were called. This rather lengthy post sumarizes what I know. I added some examples and old photos of this latter shibriya precursor type. Regards, Eytan Attached Images

28th January 2017, 03:37 PM	#7
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Another Shibriya Hello Motan, I would like to thank you for posting this interesting thread about Shibriyas. I have a few in my collection and have never really been able to find out much detail about them such as age, which particular tribes carried them, are they a general purpose or fighting weapon or both, where did the design originate from etc etc.? I don't understand why there is so little information about them it would appear that have been under the radar or the experts have not thought them worthy enough to study, I personally find them a very interesting and deadly weapon having its own unique shape. Having searched through my own reference books the only one which mentioned this dagger was Elgood`s Arms and Armour of Arabia and this was only quoting someone else who had commented that some tribes in northern Arabia carried a short, narrow knife. The knife being a shibriya and a tribe called Rwala all very vague and no illustrations or photos despite there being dozens of Jambiya and Khanjar illustrations, why none of the Shibriya, I don't understand. I have taken the liberty of showing some pics of my Shimbriyas and would be grateful for your comments as I know next to nothing about them. Their O/Ls without scabbard vary between 11 and 11.75 ins. No 1:- Very plain but I feel it to be an old one? No 2:- Still very plain with some decoration on the hilt. Again I have a feeling that this may be an old one. I think that the pommel is also interesting having not seen one on other Shimbriyas. No 3:- this is more decorative and modern having the date of 1370 AH on the blade which I think equates to 1950/51 AD. No 4:- Again more decorative and modern possibly similar date to No 3? No 5:- Very decorative with the date 1900? on the blade. I am not sure if this is a date or something else as the style seems to be more modern. Attached Images

28th January 2017, 03:41 PM	#8
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Shabriya N0 5. Attached Images

20th January 2017, 04:40 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Avner Yarom once introduced me to an old family friend, a collector of everything:-) He had literally hundreds of old sharpies hanging on walls, under glass covers and just piled up in plastic baskets. I still remember a humongous drawer filled to the brim with shibriyas. Somebody could write a PhD or a full book with this drawer alone:-)

20th January 2017, 08:40 PM	#4
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,338	Hey Motan, I have been following your contributions with great interest and like you, I struggle with the lack of material. Shibriyas are usually simple, but some examples are quite nice. Is it the size or the blade that makes a dagger a shibriya? Arabs in all regions that use shibriyas (more wide spread than the levant) define it by the size. While Western collectors I notice to define it by blade type. I like your older examples, rarely find them lately.

21st January 2017, 01:58 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Dog-leg.

28th January 2017, 07:37 PM	#9
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 402	Miguel, I would be interested to know what the coin is on your shibriya no.5. Regards Richard

28th January 2017, 11:01 PM	#10
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Comments Hi Miguel, Thanks for asking. I will comment on them one by one and that will take a while. I am not a very good expert on the subject, so don't take my comments as the truth but as an opinion. As for the general lack of information, I think that shibriyas were not valued because they were primitive relative to other weapons from the surrounding areas (Syria for example), were low-grade workmanship and relatively recent. However, at least up to 1960, they were made mainly for local use and were carried by local tribesmen as well as by the soldiers of the Arab Legion. Even today, some bedouin wear them for festive or official occasions (like my good friend A'wad from the Azazme). Therefore, they are authentic ethnographic weapons and deserve at least some recognition. As for their use, they are definately weapons and not utility knifes (despite claims of the opposite) simply because they are shaped like pure stabbing weapons and are not much good for anything else. Like all Middle Eastern daggers, they are also man's juwelry and a symbol of manhood. No. 1-Definately the oldest of the lot. Probably made in Jordan where the majority of shibriyas were made. This shape of pommel is known, but not very common. The long and relatively narrow blade is a sign of older ones (thanks Artzi). I would say it is from the late 1920's or from the 1930's. In pic 1 and 2, I show similar ones No. 2-The most difficult to place and date for me. The style bears resemblance to a known type shown in pic 3. I believe that this one (as well as my example) are the only ones of the lot of Palestinian origin. I base this on the style of decoration on the scabbard which is definately Palestinian. The age is difficult to gues because I recognize stages only in the more common Jordanian types. The rest tommorow. Eytan Attached Images

29th January 2017, 02:41 AM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	There is a guy in Latvia named Denis Cherevichnik who is into history of knife fights around the world ( he even wrote a big book about it with deep analysis of literally hundreds of historical sources in several languages and spanning several centuries). He published an article ( in Russian, unfortunately for most of the Forumites) about Sica, a dog-leg curved Roman ( or Dacian) dagger. To make the long story short, he makes connection between Sica and Shibria. Indeed, they look virtually identical. Whether it is a case of parallel development or of some atavistic feature is uncertain, but the idea is intriguing.

1st February 2017, 07:07 PM	#15
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 402	Yes, and it all makes sense. Thank you Miguel and Eytan. Best wishes Richard