Brilliant Minds Neded: a Multi Barrel Illustration of 1511

Matchlock · 14th May 2009, 05:22 PM

Fernando, Jim, Richard (in alphabetical order),

Please comment, all ye blessed with keen wits ...

I am neither a physicist nor a technician but to me this is pure fanatasy.

From:
Flavius Vegetius Renatus: Vier Bücher der Rytterschafft (Four books on knighthood), Erfurt, Germany, 1511.

Michael

fearn · 14th May 2009, 06:35 PM

Hi Michael,

Not on your list, but I would point out that as drawn, it's topologically impossible, as the central cannons pass through each other.

Could something like this be made? Actually, yes, if you assume that the cannons are really short (as shown by their fuse holes), and if you assume tha the central frame is a wooden or metal solid lattice, rather than interlaced as shown.

That said, it's something I'd rather sell the enemy than use myself. It's neither aimable nor powerful (short barrel, relatively large ball), and the only way to fire it is to have a bunch of people standing in the central lattice and shooting outwards. Since they have no shielding, nor any place to even duck, using this weapon would be a suicide mission.

Neat design though. Maybe it has some mystical meaning

, with fire going everywhere and enlightenment subsequently occurring, or something.

Best,

F

fernando · 14th May 2009, 08:10 PM

I wish i were a brilliant mind, to coment on this one with authority. I am only brilliant enough to recognize that this is too much sand for my truck.
Fantasy, fiction ... where is the border between them and reality ? Probably the drawings of da Vinci were initially considered fantasy, namely the helicopter and the wheel lock mechanism ?!
Isn't this drawing coherent with the others from the same work (and not only)that you showed here?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7927
Maybe all these are fantasized drawings of weapons to come? Ones looking more 'implausible' than others?
You said it, multi barrel devices (cannons/mortsars/böllers) were part of the scene.
Was Flavius Vegetius Renatus a writer or an arms specialist?
Let me stop here, to avoid talking more BS.
By the way, did you people know that it was da Vinci who 'invented' the pointed projectile?
Fernando

Matchlock · 14th May 2009, 08:42 PM

Hi Fearn,

Brilliant thoughts and observations indeed - thanks a lot!

I agree absolutely with you.

Best,
Michael

Jim McDougall · 15th May 2009, 03:47 AM

Hi Michael,
Thank you for your kindness in including me in this category, which though I am not actually one, I am always honored to be in the company of the many here who are.

My first instinct in looking at this thing is....what the heck were they smokin' in those days!

It is interesting that this interesting...actually bizarre....illustration is contemporary with DaVinci, and many of the inventions he put to paper were probably considered equally bizarre in those times. Surprisingly, a number of them truly did come to fruition....thankfully this guys idea did not!

I cannot imagine how such a firearms nightmare could ever have been actually conceived as a viable invention. I cannot help but think that this illustration may have had some allegorical intent, much as Fearn has suggested. I think his points on the improbability of the dynamics of this 'invention' are well placed also, as perceived by my own very lay understanding of technical things.

It is known that many famed classical artists in these times, with DaVinci at the fore, often had unusually wry and profound symbolism and mysterious satire imbued in thier works . Naturally the pretense of "The DaVinci Code" strongly suggests this somewhat plausible potential, regardless of obvious conflicting perspectives.

As we have discussed before with multibarreled firearms in developing times, there was a distinct problem with simultaneous ignition. In many cases, from what I understand, guns such as the 'pepperbox' pistol, with six or more shots in a revolving chamber, could easily discharge all at once...probably not good for the firer of the weapon !

Fernando, interesting note about Leonardo's invention of the pointed projectile, as I always say, amazing what you have in that archives of esoterica!

All the best,
Jim

Rick · 15th May 2009, 03:52 AM

I don't know if any of you watch the discovery channel; but this year there is a show on which they build functional weapons from Leonardo's War Machine designs .

Good stuff !!

Royston · 16th May 2009, 10:34 AM

Considering the age; I'd look more to Ergot poisoning than 13

Rick,
I think you are on the right track. Perhaps one of Heath-Robinson's ancestors and mouldy bread.

They are amazing drawwings.

Royston

Rick · 16th May 2009, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royston

Considering the age; I'd look more to Ergot poisoning than 13

Rick,
I think you are on the right track. Perhaps one of Heath-Robinson's ancestors and mouldy bread.

They are amazing drawwings.

Royston

Jeff mentioned it first .

I thought of a certain MS. D'Arc .
There was some speculation about that; was there not ?

Matchlock · 16th May 2009, 05:40 PM

Hi there,

Many thanks to all of you for your esteemed contributions which have added various new impulses to my understanding!

As to the historical person of Flavius Vegetius Renatus: He was a Roman military theoretic, who lived around 400 a.D.

Like all ancient Roman and Greek cultural motifs, the Italian and German Renaissance (nomen est omen!) of the 16th century took up the ancient military devices again, copied and modified them to meet contemporary technical standards and needs. Thus, the anonymous author of these Renaissance technical and military books assumed the name of the ancient Roman author, indicating at the same time his will to continue and update the work of his predecessor.

As early as 1466, another early Renaissance author named Roberto Valturio published modernized copies of the original Roman author's works illustrated by colored contemporary woodcuts. I attach a few of them and you will see that Valturio and F.V. Renatus were kindred minds.

What was actually new to the Renaissance re-born works was their profuse illustration with woodcuts made by contemporary artisans. As has been observed in replies to this post, the author of a Gothic or Renaissance book was never identical with the illustrator(s).

Thanks again, all of you are brilliant and discussions like this are an important enrichment to our forum!

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 16th May 2009, 05:44 PM

A few more.

Looking at these woodcuts there is no doubt about the fact that all these authors and illustrators copied from each other and especially from earlier works!

Copyright had not been invented.

Michael

fearn · 17th May 2009, 02:33 AM

Hi Michael,

The ones you just showed look much more familiar. Now I know where the modern reconstructionists are using to make those trebuchets and siege equipment. They need to make one of those assault dragons, though.

As an aside, people are still reprinting Roman works with new pictures. As a child, I was given one that had some of Pliny's Naturalis historia (in latin) with fanciful pictures attached. They'd picked Pliny's more colorful mistakes to illustrate, of course. Even under modern law, the old texts are in the public domain, so someone could take Flavius Vegetius Renatus and illustrate it as they liked.

Project for someone here, perhaps, without herbal inspiration?

F

cornelistromp · 20th May 2009, 08:22 PM

HI Michael,

yes, this multi barrel Illustration can be fired, all the barrels with the ignition
of one barrel.(your first picture)
I have a publication of a 12 barrel gun out of the Visser collection with this same principle. Iam in the Monaco at the moment but will place the publication in this thread coming weekend.

Best regards

Matchlock · 21st May 2009, 12:54 PM

Hi Cornelis,

I am looking forward to seeing your post! Return quickly!

Best,
Michael

14th May 2009, 05:22 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Brilliant Minds Needed: a Multi Barrel Illustration of 1511 Fernando, Jim, Richard (in alphabetical order), Please comment, all ye blessed with keen wits ... I am neither a physicist nor a technician but to me this is pure fanatasy. From: Flavius Vegetius Renatus: Vier Bücher der Rytterschafft (Four books on knighthood), Erfurt, Germany, 1511. Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 14th May 2009 at 08:43 PM.

14th May 2009, 08:10 PM	#3
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	I wish i were a brilliant mind, to coment on this one with authority. I am only brilliant enough to recognize that this is too much sand for my truck. Fantasy, fiction ... where is the border between them and reality ? Probably the drawings of da Vinci were initially considered fantasy, namely the helicopter and the wheel lock mechanism ?! Isn't this drawing coherent with the others from the same work (and not only)that you showed here? http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7927 Maybe all these are fantasized drawings of weapons to come? Ones looking more 'implausible' than others? You said it, multi barrel devices (cannons/mortsars/böllers) were part of the scene. Was Flavius Vegetius Renatus a writer or an arms specialist? Let me stop here, to avoid talking more BS. By the way, did you people know that it was da Vinci who 'invented' the pointed projectile? Fernando Last edited by fernando; 14th May 2009 at 08:27 PM.

16th May 2009, 05:40 PM	#9
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Ancient Culture and its Renaissance Period Revival Hi there, Many thanks to all of you for your esteemed contributions which have added various new impulses to my understanding! As to the historical person of Flavius Vegetius Renatus: He was a Roman military theoretic, who lived around 400 a.D. Like all ancient Roman and Greek cultural motifs, the Italian and German Renaissance (nomen est omen!) of the 16th century took up the ancient military devices again, copied and modified them to meet contemporary technical standards and needs. Thus, the anonymous author of these Renaissance technical and military books assumed the name of the ancient Roman author, indicating at the same time his will to continue and update the work of his predecessor. As early as 1466, another early Renaissance author named Roberto Valturio published modernized copies of the original Roman author's works illustrated by colored contemporary woodcuts. I attach a few of them and you will see that Valturio and F.V. Renatus were kindred minds. What was actually new to the Renaissance re-born works was their profuse illustration with woodcuts made by contemporary artisans. As has been observed in replies to this post, the author of a Gothic or Renaissance book was never identical with the illustrator(s). Thanks again, all of you are brilliant and discussions like this are an important enrichment to our forum! Best, Michael Attached Images

16th May 2009, 05:44 PM	#10
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A few more. Looking at these woodcuts there is no doubt about the fact that all these authors and illustrators copied from each other and especially from earlier works! Copyright had not been invented. Michael Attached Images

14th May 2009, 06:35 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Michael, Not on your list, but I would point out that as drawn, it's topologically impossible, as the central cannons pass through each other. Could something like this be made? Actually, yes, if you assume that the cannons are really short (as shown by their fuse holes), and if you assume tha the central frame is a wooden or metal solid lattice, rather than interlaced as shown. That said, it's something I'd rather sell the enemy than use myself. It's neither aimable nor powerful (short barrel, relatively large ball), and the only way to fire it is to have a bunch of people standing in the central lattice and shooting outwards. Since they have no shielding, nor any place to even duck, using this weapon would be a suicide mission. Neat design though. Maybe it has some mystical meaning , with fire going everywhere and enlightenment subsequently occurring, or something. Best, F

14th May 2009, 08:42 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Fearn, Brilliant thoughts and observations indeed - thanks a lot! I agree absolutely with you. Best, Michael

15th May 2009, 03:47 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,748	Hi Michael, Thank you for your kindness in including me in this category, which though I am not actually one, I am always honored to be in the company of the many here who are. My first instinct in looking at this thing is....what the heck were they smokin' in those days! It is interesting that this interesting...actually bizarre....illustration is contemporary with DaVinci, and many of the inventions he put to paper were probably considered equally bizarre in those times. Surprisingly, a number of them truly did come to fruition....thankfully this guys idea did not! I cannot imagine how such a firearms nightmare could ever have been actually conceived as a viable invention. I cannot help but think that this illustration may have had some allegorical intent, much as Fearn has suggested. I think his points on the improbability of the dynamics of this 'invention' are well placed also, as perceived by my own very lay understanding of technical things. It is known that many famed classical artists in these times, with DaVinci at the fore, often had unusually wry and profound symbolism and mysterious satire imbued in thier works . Naturally the pretense of "The DaVinci Code" strongly suggests this somewhat plausible potential, regardless of obvious conflicting perspectives. As we have discussed before with multibarreled firearms in developing times, there was a distinct problem with simultaneous ignition. In many cases, from what I understand, guns such as the 'pepperbox' pistol, with six or more shots in a revolving chamber, could easily discharge all at once...probably not good for the firer of the weapon ! Fernando, interesting note about Leonardo's invention of the pointed projectile, as I always say, amazing what you have in that archives of esoterica! All the best, Jim

15th May 2009, 03:52 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	I don't know if any of you watch the discovery channel; but this year there is a show on which they build functional weapons from Leonardo's War Machine designs . Good stuff !!

16th May 2009, 10:34 AM	#7
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 441	Considering the age; I'd look more to Ergot poisoning than 13 Rick, I think you are on the right track. Perhaps one of Heath-Robinson's ancestors and mouldy bread. They are amazing drawwings. Royston

17th May 2009, 02:33 AM	#11
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Michael, The ones you just showed look much more familiar. Now I know where the modern reconstructionists are using to make those trebuchets and siege equipment. They need to make one of those assault dragons, though. As an aside, people are still reprinting Roman works with new pictures. As a child, I was given one that had some of Pliny's Naturalis historia (in latin) with fanciful pictures attached. They'd picked Pliny's more colorful mistakes to illustrate, of course. Even under modern law, the old texts are in the public domain, so someone could take Flavius Vegetius Renatus and illustrate it as they liked. Project for someone here, perhaps, without herbal inspiration? F

20th May 2009, 08:22 PM	#12
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,057	HI Michael, yes, this multi barrel Illustration can be fired, all the barrels with the ignition of one barrel.(your first picture) I have a publication of a 12 barrel gun out of the Visser collection with this same principle. Iam in the Monaco at the moment but will place the publication in this thread coming weekend. Best regards

21st May 2009, 12:54 PM	#13
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Cornelis, I am looking forward to seeing your post! Return quickly! Best, Michael