Persian made blade...but where did it see service??

CharlesS · 5th June 2008, 02:49 PM

Here is a nice example of a Persian made blade, almost straight, but not quite, and from good(but not the best) wootz. Some refer to this type as a "trade blade".

While the blade is of quality and of interest, I am more intrigued by the hilt, and wonder who(ethnically) may have used this sword. The hilt has both Persian and Ottoman characteristics. I wonder if the inscription on the guard is in Arabic or Farsi...that may go a long ways towards answering the question....can anyone make it out??

Comments and opinions are welcomed.

Tim Simmons · 5th June 2008, 05:13 PM

I have the cloak to go with this. Silk, gold and silver brocade.

Dom · 5th June 2008, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

I wonder if the inscription on the guard is in Arabic or Farsi...that may go a long ways towards answering the question....can anyone make it out??

to have a chance to read the inscription on the guard
- no flash
- macro focus
to read, because the translation it's an other story

translation of the inscription on the blade, religious invocation
"no power nor strength except in Allah"

à +

Dom

CharlesS · 8th June 2008, 08:32 PM

Here are some better pics of the guard without flash, so hopefully that will help in translation.

Obviously the script is Arabic, but is the text Arabic or Farsi??

Dom · 9th June 2008, 02:33 PM

Hi Charles

definitively the text is Arabic,
positively in Farsi, because each side has as mention ??? Ali and ??? Mohamed
the Chiites are usual* to use the mention of "Ali" even associated with the name of Mohamed

à +

Dom

*Ali is much more popular with Chiites than with Sunnites

CharlesS · 10th June 2008, 07:13 PM

Thanks for your help, Dom.

Jens Nordlunde · 10th June 2008, 09:38 PM

Is the blade Syrian, as I believe it to be?

Jim McDougall · 10th June 2008, 10:49 PM

That is a very astute observation Jens, as these 'trade' blades did indeed appear often in the Syrian mounts (as seen in the hilt in my avatar) as well as many other swords in Arabia, the Caucusus, India and many other regions which received these exports. These began being produced around the late 18th and early 19th c. in Khorassan, Qazvin and Isfahan, and continued even later .

It is my impression from the rather straight type blade, and the fact that this does appear to be one of these Persian trade blades, this is likely an Arab Bedouin sword and quite likely imported via Baghdad rather than Damascus. The Arabs preferred Persian blades and swords, and the hilt on this sword is distinctly of Persian shamshir style.

Oliver Pinchot wrote a magnificent paper on the topic of these blades titled "The Persian Shamshir:and the Sign of Assad Allah" ("Arms Collecting", Vol.40, #1, February 2002) and on p.8 he notes, "...Persian damask blades were still greatly prized among Bedouin Arabs a century later (from 1811) . Elgood mentions the unification of the Aniza tribes under the Amir of Rwala, during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, who traded at Damscus and Baghdad".

This blade appears to have a very good quality watered blade (and I would defer to those he more well versed in metallurgy) but still carrying the devotional panel on one side of the blade and the stylized lion pictogram characteristic of these trade blades.

Best regards,
Jim

TVV · 10th June 2008, 11:23 PM

I still think one of the more interesting questions about this piece concerns the inlaid brass decoration on the hilt. Such circular motives, with most likely solar symbolical meaning, are typical of the Balkans. Are there examples of similar work in other areas of the Ottoman Empire, such as Syria?
Regards,
Teodor

CharlesS · 11th June 2008, 01:17 AM

TVV, that was curious to me as well....those roundels are so Ottoman. I just think the Farsi inscriptions and interesting hilt speak to who may have used it, but I am not sure we may ever figure it out. I have seen many yats whose koftgari evokes Ali and Huseyn, surprising me a bit with such Shia inscriptions.

It may, as noted above, just be an interesting trade combination.

RSWORD · 11th June 2008, 02:06 AM

I would look to Central Asia as a possible export region. The preference for straight blades was strong there as was the Persian hilt styles. On the hilt decoration I would look to firearms for comparables as you often find this sort of decoration on firearms, more rarely on Yat and saber/shamshir hilts.

Jim McDougall · 11th June 2008, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

I would look to Central Asia as a possible export region. The preference for straight blades was strong there as was the Persian hilt styles. On the hilt decoration I would look to firearms for comparables as you often find this sort of decoration on firearms, more rarely on Yat and saber/shamshir hilts.

I agree Rick, in revisiting the Pinchot article, one of the shamshirs with similar crossguard is stated of Bukharen form, and resembled this one, despite the rest of the hilt of Persian style. Bukhara of course was predominantly influenced by Persia. I am still thinking this is likely Arabian Bedouin of mid to latter 19th c.

TVV · 23rd June 2008, 11:06 PM

Here is an interesting hilt. The qama on the picture is currently in Bulgaria, but I have been told that it was initially acquired in Istanbul recently. I think it safe to characterize the qama as Turkish.
If Chalres's sword was indeed exported initially to Southern Arabia, what are the chances it made it to Northern Arabia? To me it seems that the hilt inserts are Turkish or Turkish influenced.
Regards,
Teodor

8th June 2008, 08:32 PM	#4
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,855	Here are some better pics of the guard without flash, so hopefully that will help in translation. Obviously the script is Arabic, but is the text Arabic or Farsi?? Attached Images

9th June 2008, 02:33 PM	#5
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	Hi Charles definitively the text is Arabic, positively in Farsi, because each side has as mention ??? Ali and ??? Mohamed the Chiites are usual* to use the mention of "Ali" even associated with the name of Mohamed à + Dom *Ali is much more popular with Chiites than with Sunnites Attached Images

23rd June 2008, 11:06 PM	#13
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,597	Here is an interesting hilt. The qama on the picture is currently in Bulgaria, but I have been told that it was initially acquired in Istanbul recently. I think it safe to characterize the qama as Turkish. If Chalres's sword was indeed exported initially to Southern Arabia, what are the chances it made it to Northern Arabia? To me it seems that the hilt inserts are Turkish or Turkish influenced. Regards, Teodor Attached Images

5th June 2008, 02:49 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,855	Persian made blade...but where did it see service?? Here is a nice example of a Persian made blade, almost straight, but not quite, and from good(but not the best) wootz. Some refer to this type as a "trade blade". While the blade is of quality and of interest, I am more intrigued by the hilt, and wonder who(ethnically) may have used this sword. The hilt has both Persian and Ottoman characteristics. I wonder if the inscription on the guard is in Arabic or Farsi...that may go a long ways towards answering the question....can anyone make it out?? Comments and opinions are welcomed. Attached Images

5th June 2008, 05:13 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,736	I have the cloak to go with this. Silk, gold and silver brocade.

10th June 2008, 07:13 PM	#6
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,855	Thanks for your help, Dom.

10th June 2008, 09:38 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Is the blade Syrian, as I believe it to be?

10th June 2008, 10:49 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	That is a very astute observation Jens, as these 'trade' blades did indeed appear often in the Syrian mounts (as seen in the hilt in my avatar) as well as many other swords in Arabia, the Caucusus, India and many other regions which received these exports. These began being produced around the late 18th and early 19th c. in Khorassan, Qazvin and Isfahan, and continued even later . It is my impression from the rather straight type blade, and the fact that this does appear to be one of these Persian trade blades, this is likely an Arab Bedouin sword and quite likely imported via Baghdad rather than Damascus. The Arabs preferred Persian blades and swords, and the hilt on this sword is distinctly of Persian shamshir style. Oliver Pinchot wrote a magnificent paper on the topic of these blades titled "The Persian Shamshir:and the Sign of Assad Allah" ("Arms Collecting", Vol.40, #1, February 2002) and on p.8 he notes, "...Persian damask blades were still greatly prized among Bedouin Arabs a century later (from 1811) . Elgood mentions the unification of the Aniza tribes under the Amir of Rwala, during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, who traded at Damscus and Baghdad". This blade appears to have a very good quality watered blade (and I would defer to those he more well versed in metallurgy) but still carrying the devotional panel on one side of the blade and the stylized lion pictogram characteristic of these trade blades. Best regards, Jim

10th June 2008, 11:23 PM	#9
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,597	I still think one of the more interesting questions about this piece concerns the inlaid brass decoration on the hilt. Such circular motives, with most likely solar symbolical meaning, are typical of the Balkans. Are there examples of similar work in other areas of the Ottoman Empire, such as Syria? Regards, Teodor

11th June 2008, 01:17 AM	#10
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,855	TVV, that was curious to me as well....those roundels are so Ottoman. I just think the Farsi inscriptions and interesting hilt speak to who may have used it, but I am not sure we may ever figure it out. I have seen many yats whose koftgari evokes Ali and Huseyn, surprising me a bit with such Shia inscriptions. It may, as noted above, just be an interesting trade combination.

11th June 2008, 02:06 AM	#11
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	I would look to Central Asia as a possible export region. The preference for straight blades was strong there as was the Persian hilt styles. On the hilt decoration I would look to firearms for comparables as you often find this sort of decoration on firearms, more rarely on Yat and saber/shamshir hilts.