Information request about pamor type

kulbuntet · 10th October 2009, 12:03 AM

Hi all,

I have request to the persons that know about pamor Pantjing klina.

What does it mean, how does it look like, were is it for? and all other info that is posible about it. I can't find anny on the net. So If anny one can post it here, its apriciated

Regards Michel

A. G. Maisey · 10th October 2009, 01:47 AM

pantjing = pancing = a fishing rod or hook (mancing = fishing)

kelina = kalima = fifth

Never heard of this pamor, don't know what it looks like, don't know anything about it.

Amuk Murugul · 10th October 2009, 01:56 AM

Hullo everybody,

From what I can recall, the correct name is: Pantjing Keling (fishing-line for catching a type of coral fish).
It is represented by one line along the length of the blade, with a break along it which curves in the shape of a dangling fish-hook.

Perhaps someone more familiar with Djawa mysticism/pamor may correct me or elucidate further.

Best,

A. G. Maisey · 10th October 2009, 03:53 AM

I do not know "keling" as any type of fish. I've just checked with two native speakers of Javanese, both from East Jawa, and they do not know it as a type of fish.

I know the word as meaning sadness or difficulty, and I have just been informed that it also means something to do with South India --- maybe a term used to refer to people from South India, and a rivet, and a type of cake.

Tammens does not mention it, neither does Zazuli, and in a limited search of both Haryoguritno and Harsrinuksmo it does not appear.

Do we know where this name is used? What society does it come from?

Boedhi Adhitya · 10th October 2009, 03:54 AM

Or perhaps, Kantjing Kulina (kancing kulina. kancing=button of garment (Bahasa) or key/padlock (Java). kulina (jav)=something ones do often so it becomes a habit and gain proficiency).

I think I've read it somewhere, but I'm not sure. As I recall, it is a 'tiban' pamor, bull-eyes shaped (several consentic circles), at specific place in keris blade.

I've never heard about Pantjing Klina, Kalima or Keling

Please remind, I have a very short memory.

Amuk Murugul · 10th October 2009, 05:58 AM

Hullo everybody,

'Koelina' in Djawa Koeno is borrowed from Sanskrit and pertains to someone who is 'high-born'.
So, the pamor name could be: Pantjingan Koelina, meaning fishing-line for the 'high-born'.

On the other hand, Keling=lele=walking-catfish (Clarias Punctatus). (Keling refers to the catfish's dark skin, which is the common colour. As Alan has already pointed out, Keling originally referred to dark-skinned people from Kalinga in southern India). So: Pantjing Keling simply means fishing line to catch catfish.

Given my description of the pamor, both are plausible.
But, I still opt for the second name.

Apologies for any mistakes.

Best,

A. G. Maisey · 10th October 2009, 08:54 AM

I really feel that we're getting a wee bit too speculative here.

Kulbuntet has given the name as pantjing klina, if we bring that into modern spelling it becomes pancing kelina.

Seems none of us have ever heard of pancing kelina.

Amuk Murugul suggests pancing keling.

I've checked further on keling --- wife has come home from the arisan --- and it appears there is an iwak keling, but she doesn't know what sort of fish it is, she only recognises the name.

So pancing keling might be valid.

I suggest we wait until Kulbuntet joins us again and tells us where he got the name from and the circumstances surrounding it. Even though we might have established a logical name, none of the references I've checked lists this pamor, and I myself have never heard of it.

I doubt that it is wise to go into Old Javanese. Pancing does occur in Old Javanese, and so does keling, but in Old Javanese Keling seems to be an alternate name for the Kingdom of Majapahit. Whilst kulina can refer to somebody of aristocratic descent, depending on context it can also refer to an ordinary village person; it seems there is a possibility kulina is in fact the root of kuli.

Amuk Murugul, you seem to be familiar with pamor pancing keling, may I ask from where do you know it? Before writing this post I rang a good friend in Solo who knows vastly more than I do --- in fact he knows vastly more than almost everybody --- and asked him if he knew this pamor, seems he hasn't heard of it either.

10th October 2009, 12:03 AM	#1
kulbuntet Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands Posts: 159	Information request about pamor type Hi all, I have request to the persons that know about pamor Pantjing klina. What does it mean, how does it look like, were is it for? and all other info that is posible about it. I can't find anny on the net. So If anny one can post it here, its apriciated Regards Michel Last edited by kulbuntet; 10th October 2009 at 12:14 AM.

10th October 2009, 01:47 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,698	pantjing = pancing = a fishing rod or hook (mancing = fishing) kelina = kalima = fifth Never heard of this pamor, don't know what it looks like, don't know anything about it. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 10th October 2009 at 08:31 AM.

10th October 2009, 01:56 AM	#3
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 457	Hullo everybody, From what I can recall, the correct name is: Pantjing Keling (fishing-line for catching a type of coral fish). It is represented by one line along the length of the blade, with a break along it which curves in the shape of a dangling fish-hook. Perhaps someone more familiar with Djawa mysticism/pamor may correct me or elucidate further. Best,

10th October 2009, 03:53 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,698	I do not know "keling" as any type of fish. I've just checked with two native speakers of Javanese, both from East Jawa, and they do not know it as a type of fish. I know the word as meaning sadness or difficulty, and I have just been informed that it also means something to do with South India --- maybe a term used to refer to people from South India, and a rivet, and a type of cake. Tammens does not mention it, neither does Zazuli, and in a limited search of both Haryoguritno and Harsrinuksmo it does not appear. Do we know where this name is used? What society does it come from?

10th October 2009, 03:54 AM	#5
Boedhi Adhitya Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 103	Or perhaps, Kantjing Kulina (kancing kulina. kancing=button of garment (Bahasa) or key/padlock (Java). kulina (jav)=something ones do often so it becomes a habit and gain proficiency). I think I've read it somewhere, but I'm not sure. As I recall, it is a 'tiban' pamor, bull-eyes shaped (several consentic circles), at specific place in keris blade. I've never heard about Pantjing Klina, Kalima or Keling Please remind, I have a very short memory.

10th October 2009, 05:58 AM	#6
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 457	Hullo everybody, 'Koelina' in Djawa Koeno is borrowed from Sanskrit and pertains to someone who is 'high-born'. So, the pamor name could be: Pantjingan Koelina, meaning fishing-line for the 'high-born'. On the other hand, Keling=lele=walking-catfish (Clarias Punctatus). (Keling refers to the catfish's dark skin, which is the common colour. As Alan has already pointed out, Keling originally referred to dark-skinned people from Kalinga in southern India). So: Pantjing Keling simply means fishing line to catch catfish. Given my description of the pamor, both are plausible. But, I still opt for the second name. Apologies for any mistakes. Best,

10th October 2009, 08:54 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,698	I really feel that we're getting a wee bit too speculative here. Kulbuntet has given the name as pantjing klina, if we bring that into modern spelling it becomes pancing kelina. Seems none of us have ever heard of pancing kelina. Amuk Murugul suggests pancing keling. I've checked further on keling --- wife has come home from the arisan --- and it appears there is an iwak keling, but she doesn't know what sort of fish it is, she only recognises the name. So pancing keling might be valid. I suggest we wait until Kulbuntet joins us again and tells us where he got the name from and the circumstances surrounding it. Even though we might have established a logical name, none of the references I've checked lists this pamor, and I myself have never heard of it. I doubt that it is wise to go into Old Javanese. Pancing does occur in Old Javanese, and so does keling, but in Old Javanese Keling seems to be an alternate name for the Kingdom of Majapahit. Whilst kulina can refer to somebody of aristocratic descent, depending on context it can also refer to an ordinary village person; it seems there is a possibility kulina is in fact the root of kuli. Amuk Murugul, you seem to be familiar with pamor pancing keling, may I ask from where do you know it? Before writing this post I rang a good friend in Solo who knows vastly more than I do --- in fact he knows vastly more than almost everybody --- and asked him if he knew this pamor, seems he hasn't heard of it either.