Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 30th January 2023, 08:52 PM   #391
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,595
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gp View Post
some called them brigands, others freedom fighters: they called themselves komitadzis
Considering they have their native Bulgarian language on their flag, is it so hard to call them what they are?
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st January 2023, 06:09 PM   #392
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,620
Default

Brazilian cangaceiros with their 1908 Mauser rifle and the famous deadly (bleeding) punhais (1920-30).


.
Attached Images
  
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st February 2023, 08:07 PM   #393
gp
Member
 
gp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 636
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TVV View Post
Considering they have their native Bulgarian language on their flag, is it so hard to call them what they are?
it always was and still is a sensitive topic in the region, to put it diplomaticly.
As one recently noticed in the official name ( The Republic of North Macedonia (Macedonian: Северна Македонија, Severna Makedonija; formerly the Republic of Macedonia, also FYROM and FYR Macedonia) based upon Greek resistance or better sensitivities...
also during the last days of the Ottoman Empire, Balkan Wars of 1912/13 and "differences"of opinion between these Kzomitadzis and Bulgaria...
Not easy as they used the same cyrillic script and Makedonia as the Makenonians claim is now also still part of Greece, Bulgaria, Albania, Serbia and the former Yugoslav republic called Makedonia.

Refraining from (geo)politics, just going back to the picture:

it originates from The Sydney Mail 1903 - The Rebellion in Macedonia.

In August 1903 the Macedonians rose against Ottoman rule. The Turks brutally suppressed the uprising, after which there were countless attacks on the population.
By regular Ottoman troops, but also by irregular formations consisting of Albanians in the service of the Ottomans.

The Sydney Mail and New South Wales Advertiser reported on Wednesday, September 23, 1903, about "terrible excesses by Turkish troops, particularly the Albanians, in the vilayets of Bitola and Adrianople".

The Ottomans named an administrative district as a vilayet, which they in turn introduced as an occupier.


Austria and Russia have protested to Turkey against the horrible' excesses of Turkish troops, especially of Albanians, in the vilayets of Monastir and Adrianople. Some Albanians have been recalled, and sent to their homes.
A general insurrection has been proclaimed in that portion of the vilayet of Salonika eastwards of the River Vardajr.

The district has been subdivided into eight sections, a Bulgarian officer commanding each. Colonel Zontcheff is Commander-in-Chief of this body of insurgents.

Owing to the scarcity of officers the Sultan has promoted all sergeant-majors to be lieuteuants.

Diplomatists agree that indiscriminate condemnation of Turkey is unjustifiable. Both sides are guilty of atrocities.

The ' Standard ' says that a few British and French ships are keeping in touch with Salonika in the event of the Powers acting in concert.

Russia and Austria have returned unfavourable replies to the Bulgarian Note asking for the interference of the Powers.

The regicides completely rule King Peter of Servia, whose chief Minister threatens to reveal an incriminating letter whenever the King is refractory.
Attached Images
  

Last edited by gp; 1st February 2023 at 08:25 PM.
gp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd February 2023, 06:07 AM   #394
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,595
Default

The rebellion was not just in Macedonia, but also in Eastern Thrace. Hence the atrocities in Bitola and Adrianople. If you look at a map and see what is between Bitola and Adrianople, the ethnicity of the insurgents should not be too hard to figure out. I still do not understand why it is so hard to call things with their real names.
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd February 2023, 01:51 PM   #395
gp
Member
 
gp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 636
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TVV View Post
The rebellion was not just in Macedonia, but also in Eastern Thrace. Hence the atrocities in Bitola and Adrianople. If you look at a map and see what is between Bitola and Adrianople, the ethnicity of the insurgents should not be too hard to figure out. I still do not understand why it is so hard to call things with their real names.

Just wanted to post some pics of Makedonian Komitadzis with focus on their cold weapons and avoid a discussion about the sensitivity around it.

If you feel offended about 1 out of the 4 pics and my interpretation of a newspaper comment of 130 years ago mentioning the men as Makedonian Komitadzis, my sincere apologies as it was not my intention to upset your Bulgarian feelings…
Perhaps next a Greek person can object to the Saloniki picture as this is presently in Greece….
Should we really go down that road?

The comment on the newspaper originates from an Australian historical review, so not bias by any connection to the region.

I have got an inlaw who might differ from your opinion concerning the men on the picture as he is Makedonian, but I sincerly do want to refrain from going there…. as I personally witnessed in Sarajevo 1988- 1992 what “ calling things by there real name “ can result to…
Obviously neither disrespect nor offence intended and without accusing you of going down that road..
Let’s agree to focus & discuss the arms and not politics please. Thank you very much.

Last edited by gp; 2nd February 2023 at 02:14 PM.
gp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd February 2023, 05:12 PM   #396
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,595
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gp View Post
Just wanted to post some pics of Makedonian Komitadzis with focus on their cold weapons and avoid a discussion about the sensitivity around it.

If you feel offended about 1 out of the 4 pics and my interpretation of a newspaper comment of 130 years ago mentioning the men as Makedonian Komitadzis, my sincere apologies as it was not my intention to upset your Bulgarian feelings…
Perhaps next a Greek person can object to the Saloniki picture as this is presently in Greece….
Should we really go down that road?

The comment on the newspaper originates from an Australian historical review, so not bias by any connection to the region.

I have got an inlaw who might differ from your opinion concerning the men on the picture as he is Makedonian, but I sincerly do want to refrain from going there…. as I personally witnessed in Sarajevo 1988- 1992 what “ calling things by there real name “ can result to…
Obviously neither disrespect nor offence intended and without accusing you of going down that road..
Let’s agree to focus & discuss the arms and not politics please. Thank you very much.
What we collect here are not replicas, but historic weapons. The study of these weapons is meaningless when they are removed from their historic context, and that context most certainly includes the people who used the arms, and their motivation to take up arms in the first place.

The pictures you posted from the Ilinden Uprising are those of ВМОРО chetniks. The abbreviations stands for Вътрешна Македоно-Одринска Революционна Организация, which translates into Internal Macedonian-Adrianopolitan Revolutionary Organization. It was established by Bulgarians, its followers were overwhelmingly Bulgarian and after the failure of the uprising, they continued to support Bulgarian goals and interests, including the Bulgarian army through the Balkan Wars and WWI. These are historical facts, which contribute to the knowledge and study of the weapons on the pictures.

If we strive to attribute swords and daggers to particular tribes in Africa and South-East Asia, there should not be any sensitivity in pointing out the correct ethnicity of armed people in the Balkans either.
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd February 2023, 06:25 PM   #397
gp
Member
 
gp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 636
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TVV View Post
What we collect here are not replicas, but historic weapons. The study of these weapons is meaningless when they are removed from their historic context, and that context most certainly includes the people who used the arms, and their motivation to take up arms in the first place.

The pictures you posted from the Ilinden Uprising are those of ВМОРО chetniks. The abbreviations stands for Вътрешна Македоно-Одринска Революционна Организация, which translates into Internal Macedonian-Adrianopolitan Revolutionary Organization. It was established by Bulgarians, its followers were overwhelmingly Bulgarian and after the failure of the uprising, they continued to support Bulgarian goals and interests, including the Bulgarian army through the Balkan Wars and WWI. These are historical facts, which contribute to the knowledge and study of the weapons on the pictures.

If we strive to attribute swords and daggers to particular tribes in Africa and South-East Asia, there should not be any sensitivity in pointing out the correct ethnicity of armed people in the Balkans either.
Thank you for your reply but this is what I wanted to avoid: the Bulgarian “claim” on everything relating to Macedonia or justification of the many “interpretations” between two “brothers” or if you like “cousins” in the region.

Being Bulgarian does not mean you are right, neither do I claim it to be: I am just a simply “cloggy” , i.e. Dutch with a connection to several Balkan countries ( Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia, Macedonia, Kosovo and Albania)
Nor do I want to start a polemic like Edith Durham and R. W. Seton-Watson had on Serbia and Albania.

Hence my request to the mods to delete the 3rd picture which is the source of TVV’s “firm” reaction.

Question to TVV: what type of weapons did they ( Bulgarians and Makedonians on the pictures) use and what is the difference between the weapons : if there's one ?

Last edited by gp; 2nd February 2023 at 07:35 PM.
gp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd February 2023, 10:22 PM   #398
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,595
Default

For that particular period of time, especially when it comes to the fighters in question, you can use the term Macedonians and Bulgarians interchangeably, since we are talking about the same people. While the weapon of choice was probably a Mannlicher carbine, the panoply included almost every imaginable system available in Europe at the time that they could get their hands on, though standard military patterns are outside the scope of this forum. When it comes to edged weapons, the kamas and yataghans that were used are virtually indistinguishable from those used throughout the Balkans, especially the Eastern Balkans in these times and the preceding century.
TVV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd February 2023, 09:43 PM   #399
gp
Member
 
gp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 636
Default

and now for something completely different....


drawings of the Pandurs between 1742 -1760 ; in service of the Habsburg Empire in Hungary / Croatia ...the borderland and mostly know as Baron Franz von der Trenck's pandurs. not to be mistaken with his cousin Friedrich Freiherr von der Trenck. Although both lead a colorful life .
Attached Images
         

Last edited by gp; 3rd February 2023 at 09:56 PM.
gp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd February 2023, 09:45 PM   #400
gp
Member
 
gp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 636
Default

some close up details; Pandurs and zhusars in battle
Attached Images
     

Last edited by gp; 3rd February 2023 at 09:57 PM.
gp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2023, 11:09 AM   #401
mahratt
Member
 
mahratt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 1,042
Default

Khassadars with choora daggers, Waziristan, 1920
Attached Images
 
mahratt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th February 2023, 09:12 PM   #402
dat_man
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 16
Default

Bedouins with spears/ lances
Attached Images
      
dat_man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st February 2023, 12:32 AM   #403
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,145
Default

Camel corps of King abdul-Aziz, Head of the Saudis.


In 1902, the Saudi bedouins recapture the Masmak Fort in Riyadh, and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia was reborn after 3 years of further battles. They surprised the enemy garrison. As they charged the rapidly closing gate, a camel lancer hurled his spear at the gate, the blade stuck in the door, and snapped off. It is still there. They stormed the fort and captured it.



The Camel warriors, the gate, and the fort:
Attached Images
    
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th March 2023, 12:46 PM   #404
gp
Member
 
gp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 636
Default

some pics from albania between 1885-1910
Attached Images
      
gp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th March 2023, 04:47 PM   #405
Teisani
Member
 
Teisani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
Default

Wallachian haiduc (outlaw basically), Iancu Jianu 1788-1843.
Attached Images
 
Teisani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2023, 11:17 PM   #406
gp
Member
 
gp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 636
Default

pictures of several gaucho's from Brazil, Uruguay and Argentina with their facón / knives ( between 25-50cm / approx. 10 - 20 in.)
Attached Images
        
gp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2023, 12:51 AM   #407
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,259
Thumbs up

Middle picture:
Looks like an old Iver Johnson top break revolver w/pearl grips on his belt.
Beautiful kit.

The three in the picture below him all look like they are carrying swords,.

Last edited by Rick; 19th March 2023 at 01:05 AM.
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2023, 08:51 PM   #408
gp
Member
 
gp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 636
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Middle picture:

The three in the picture below him all look like they are carrying swords,.
it actually is a caronero; a long knife used by the gauchos.
But it looks that indeed other weapons like swords might have been borrowed...
Attached Images
       

Last edited by gp; 19th March 2023 at 09:10 PM.
gp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2023, 09:05 PM   #409
gp
Member
 
gp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 636
Default

article called "PROMENADE A TRAVERS LA PAMPA GAUCHO" a walk through the gaucho's pampa from 1881

and how it looked like

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/JDDX_z7tT10

and a little info on these long ones:

http://esgrimacriolla.blogspot.com/2...-caronero.html
Attached Images
 

Last edited by gp; 19th March 2023 at 09:41 PM.
gp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2023, 09:51 AM   #410
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 4,008
Default

gp,

I'm not sure those blades are very true to reality. They look more like folding knives, such as navaja, than facón or cuchillo. This could just as well be a Mediterranean scene, despite the legend to the drawing. Popular travelogues from the nineteenth century generally took a lot of license with what they presented, and often times the stories were written by people who had not ventured very far from Europe.
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2023, 03:00 PM   #411
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,620
Default

Amen.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd March 2023, 12:29 AM   #412
David R
Member
 
David R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,049
Default

I am also very sceptical of the "ice-pick" grip of the blades, which is rare in real life and specialised for a power strike or finishing move. As I understand it Gaucho fought for prestige and to settle disputes usually with a poncho or blanket wrapped round the left arm as a protection.
David R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th April 2023, 08:01 PM   #413
Turkoman.khan
Member
 
Turkoman.khan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2023
Posts: 91
Default

DUPRÉ, Louis (1789-1837). Voyage à Athènes et à Constantinople, ou Collection de portraits, de vues et de costumes grecs et ottomans, peints sur les lieux. Paris: Dondey-Dupré, 1825

Ralioundji. Military sailor attached to the Ottoman Admiralty
Attached Images
 
Turkoman.khan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2023, 10:08 AM   #414
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,620
Default

Excelent image .
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2023, 12:46 PM   #415
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,145
Default

Kalioundji: He looks rather small in proportion to his weapons.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2023, 12:49 PM   #416
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,620
Default

Whatever .
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th April 2023, 10:04 PM   #417
cyten
Member
 
cyten's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Caucasus
Posts: 83
Default

Sharpening Kindjals in Ganja, Azerbaijan
Attached Images
 
cyten is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd April 2023, 11:36 PM   #418
gp
Member
 
gp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 636
Default

Man from Fèlibè / Plodiv around 1873
Man from Montenegro around 1900 / 1910
Man from Skafia Crete 1880/1900
Attached Images
   

Last edited by gp; 23rd April 2023 at 04:29 PM.
gp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd April 2023, 11:39 PM   #419
gp
Member
 
gp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 636
Default

2 pics from the Georgian tribe of Hevrusians
Attached Images
  

Last edited by gp; 23rd April 2023 at 04:29 PM.
gp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd April 2023, 05:59 PM   #420
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,259
Default

Those must be drinking horns; I was a bit puzzled about their use initially.
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.