Unknown Islamic Wootz? Sword

Norman McCormick · 18th December 2016, 06:28 PM

Hi Guys,
I need help with this sword. I can't find anything similar, might be my search options!, so if anybody can help with the where, who and when I would be grateful. Thanks.
Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Should the scabbard be covered in leather? cloth? The many photos of the scabbard furniture is because all the engravings are different on either side.

P.P.S. A translation of the script would be great as well.

Norman McCormick · 18th December 2016, 06:40 PM

More Photos.

Kubur · 18th December 2016, 06:58 PM

Hi Norman,

It's easy, you have just to look at your own posts!

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=pala

It's an Austrian/Hungarian sword with very strong Ottoman influences.
Look also at the Magnate swords...

Kind regards,
Kubur

kai · 18th December 2016, 06:58 PM

Hello Norman,

the blade seems to be forged from laminated steel, not wootz.

The fittings look very recent to me...

Regards,
Kai

Norman McCormick · 18th December 2016, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Norman,

It's easy, you have just to look at your own posts!

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=pala

It's an Austrian/Hungarian sword with very strong Ottoman influences.
Look also at the Magnate swords...

Kind regards,
Kubur

Hi Kubur,
The similarities were not lost on me especially the three stars and crescent moon motif but I did not want to 'jump the gun' and wanted to wait for members ideas. I did look at Hungarian magnate swords but the fittings seemed a little plain but maybe not. Thanks as always for replying.
My Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 18th December 2016, 07:24 PM

Hi Kai,
The fittings are certainly not that recent as they are pretty dinged about, to my mind anyway, but this is out of my sphere of knowledge. If it is an Austro-Hungarian concoction then it probably won't be wootz. Thanks for replying.
My Regards,
Norman.

Battara · 18th December 2016, 11:36 PM

I too was thinking the region of Hungary.

mariusgmioc · 19th December 2016, 09:35 AM

Hello Norman,

The blade is clearly layered laminated and not wootz. And it appears to be acid etched, not chiseled/engraved.

As with respect to the geographical location, that may be very tricky as it lacks clearly defining characteristics allowing a certain geographical location. The blade may be Ottoman, but also Hungarian or Eastern European... I guess...

My guess is that it is not older than early 20th century.

But this is only my guess...

Regards,

Marius

PS: The scabbard fittings appear to be of ordinary white metal (like pewter). I am inclined to see this sword as a tourist souvenir, but that is my perception based on my own standards.

ALEX · 19th December 2016, 09:46 AM

I also agree the blade is laminated, not wootz. It is European blade, the acid etching could be historicism period to add Oriental(ism) flavor to it. I also agree with Kai, the fittings strike me as very new. Those who make them now almost always bang them with various objects to add appearance of age and use, but the work, shape and form are very recent.

Kubur · 19th December 2016, 05:18 PM

I think that they are all right.
I will bring the last nails. I found two swords quite similar quoted as
Polish Turkish Sword with European blade
and the other
Turkish Tatar sword with broad blade
The both have old Indian blades but the mounts and hilts are recent to me.
Could it be the same with an old Hungarian blade?

ALEX · 19th December 2016, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

...
Could it be the same with an old Hungarian blade?

Most certainly!

Norman McCormick · 20th December 2016, 11:59 AM

Hi Guys,
Thanks to all for your comments. It would appear to be an older blade in newer non historical clothes. Do you think it would be a worthwhile or indeed an interesting exercise to dismount the blade and remount in historical suitable fittings and if so what would you suggest? Thanks again for all the ideas and comments.
My Regards,
Norman.

mariusgmioc · 20th December 2016, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Guys,
Thanks to all for your comments. It would appear to be an older blade in newer non historical clothes. Do you think it would be a worthwhile or indeed an interesting exercise to dismount the blade and remount in historical suitable fittings and if so what would you suggest? Thanks again for all the ideas and comments.
My Regards,
Norman.

Hello Norman,

1. How did you conclude it is an older blade? Or better said: define "older."
2. Where do you expect to find perfectly matching "historical" fittings?
3. What do you expect to achive by having the blade remounted?

Regards,

Marius

Norman McCormick · 20th December 2016, 03:32 PM

Hi Marius,

1) On the advice and opinions of other members, please see post no 11, and having handled a fair number of blades I am reasonably sure that the blade is a bit older than the rest but by how much I don't know.

2) I don't, I was going to manufacture, as an interesting exercise, the parts myself. As the sword is already an amalgam of 'bits' I see no harm in doing this as any integrity is already lost.

3) Satisfaction, not often I have a blade I can play about with. I would of course inscribe the date e.g. 18th June 2017 into a part of the new fittings e.g. the scabbard locket and somewhere on the guard so that it could never be taken as a period piece, this is of course assuming my manufacturing skills are of a sufficient level to be taken for the real thing.

I hope this has answered your questions satisfactorily but if you have any counter ideas I am open to all suggestions. Many thanks for your interest.
My Regards,
Norman.

Sajen · 20th December 2016, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

1. How did you conclude it is an older blade? Or better said: define "older."
2. Where do you expect to find perfectly matching "historical" fittings?
3. What do you expect to achive by having the blade remounted?

Hi Marius,

for 1., when I see the pictures Norman has provided I would say that we see an antique blade, the patination and the lamination scructure I see that the blade is minimum end of 19th until very early 20th century. I know not enough to say from where this blade coming so this would be the first step to do research. For 2., when you find fitting mounts with a rotted blade maybe.

3. Norman has exactly what he has now, an old blade in not original mount, but now with all parts antique.

And when Norman enjoy this exercise he will have learned a lot.

BTW, by how many of your blades you can be sure that all parts born together?

Regards,
Detlef

mariusgmioc · 20th December 2016, 05:09 PM

Thank you Norman for the reply!

I was purely curious, and that's why I asked.

I wish you success with refitting the blade (if you decide to do it)... but if it were mine, I would keep it as it is (for the reason that I can't possibly make any fittings myself and it will be a time consuming work)!

Norman McCormick · 20th December 2016, 05:17 PM

Hi Guys,
My thanks to all who participated in this thread, lessons have been learnt!

My Regards,
Norman.

Roland_M · 21st December 2016, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Guys,
My thanks to all who participated in this thread, lessons have been learnt!

My Regards,
Norman.

Hello Norman,

the blade is a Montmorency type, with a big and a small fuller to add more stiffness to the blade. This type was pretty popular in the late 18th and early 19th century, the French Model 1822 as a mass produced saber for example. The blade is pattern welded steel, probably of european origin and could be up to 200 years or more old. Almost 100% not 20th ct..

Roland

18th December 2016, 06:28 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Unknown Islamic Wootz? Sword Hi Guys, I need help with this sword. I can't find anything similar, might be my search options!, so if anybody can help with the where, who and when I would be grateful. Thanks. Regards, Norman. P.S. Should the scabbard be covered in leather? cloth? The many photos of the scabbard furniture is because all the engravings are different on either side. P.P.S. A translation of the script would be great as well. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 18th December 2016 at 06:46 PM.

18th December 2016, 06:40 PM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	More Photos. Attached Images

19th December 2016, 09:35 AM	#8
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,875	Hello Norman, The blade is clearly layered laminated and not wootz. And it appears to be acid etched, not chiseled/engraved. As with respect to the geographical location, that may be very tricky as it lacks clearly defining characteristics allowing a certain geographical location. The blade may be Ottoman, but also Hungarian or Eastern European... I guess... My guess is that it is not older than early 20th century. But this is only my guess... Regards, Marius PS: The scabbard fittings appear to be of ordinary white metal (like pewter). I am inclined to see this sword as a tourist souvenir, but that is my perception based on my own standards. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 19th December 2016 at 10:17 AM.

19th December 2016, 05:18 PM	#10
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I think that they are all right. I will bring the last nails. I found two swords quite similar quoted as Polish Turkish Sword with European blade and the other Turkish Tatar sword with broad blade The both have old Indian blades but the mounts and hilts are recent to me. Could it be the same with an old Hungarian blade? Attached Images

20th December 2016, 03:32 PM	#14
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Marius, 1) On the advice and opinions of other members, please see post no 11, and having handled a fair number of blades I am reasonably sure that the blade is a bit older than the rest but by how much I don't know. 2) I don't, I was going to manufacture, as an interesting exercise, the parts myself. As the sword is already an amalgam of 'bits' I see no harm in doing this as any integrity is already lost. 3) Satisfaction, not often I have a blade I can play about with. I would of course inscribe the date e.g. 18th June 2017 into a part of the new fittings e.g. the scabbard locket and somewhere on the guard so that it could never be taken as a period piece, this is of course assuming my manufacturing skills are of a sufficient level to be taken for the real thing. I hope this has answered your questions satisfactorily but if you have any counter ideas I am open to all suggestions. Many thanks for your interest. My Regards, Norman. Last edited by Norman McCormick; 20th December 2016 at 04:08 PM.

18th December 2016, 06:58 PM	#3
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Norman, It's easy, you have just to look at your own posts! http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=pala It's an Austrian/Hungarian sword with very strong Ottoman influences. Look also at the Magnate swords... Kind regards, Kubur

18th December 2016, 06:58 PM	#4
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,219	Hello Norman, the blade seems to be forged from laminated steel, not wootz. The fittings look very recent to me... Regards, Kai

18th December 2016, 07:24 PM	#6
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Kai, The fittings are certainly not that recent as they are pretty dinged about, to my mind anyway, but this is out of my sphere of knowledge. If it is an Austro-Hungarian concoction then it probably won't be wootz. Thanks for replying. My Regards, Norman.

18th December 2016, 11:36 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	I too was thinking the region of Hungary.

19th December 2016, 09:46 AM	#9
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	I also agree the blade is laminated, not wootz. It is European blade, the acid etching could be historicism period to add Oriental(ism) flavor to it. I also agree with Kai, the fittings strike me as very new. Those who make them now almost always bang them with various objects to add appearance of age and use, but the work, shape and form are very recent.

20th December 2016, 11:59 AM	#12
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Guys, Thanks to all for your comments. It would appear to be an older blade in newer non historical clothes. Do you think it would be a worthwhile or indeed an interesting exercise to dismount the blade and remount in historical suitable fittings and if so what would you suggest? Thanks again for all the ideas and comments. My Regards, Norman.

20th December 2016, 05:09 PM	#16
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,875	Thank you Norman for the reply! I was purely curious, and that's why I asked. I wish you success with refitting the blade (if you decide to do it)... but if it were mine, I would keep it as it is (for the reason that I can't possibly make any fittings myself and it will be a time consuming work)!

20th December 2016, 05:17 PM	#17
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Guys, My thanks to all who participated in this thread, lessons have been learnt! My Regards, Norman.