A Very Nice Dagger

Robert · 23rd October 2010, 06:37 PM

Hello, I located this at an on-line sales house the other day and just had to post these pictures. Please excuse the poor picture quality as they are the ones from the sales house. I believe that the initials are FG but I'm not sure. The only measurement I have is a total length of about 15 inches for the dagger out of the sheath. Comments would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Robert

Lew · 23rd October 2010, 08:14 PM

Nice find

Atlantia · 23rd October 2010, 08:16 PM

Will it be joining your collection soon Robert?
Its a beauty. Rather gothic!

Robert · 23rd October 2010, 09:12 PM

Lew and Gene, Thank you both for your comments. It is on its way now to join the rest of my collection. I hope to post better pictures after it arrives and the actual measurements as well.

Robert

Atlantia · 23rd October 2010, 09:27 PM

Its a wonderful 'cocktail' of styles. The engraving is superb. I love the shape and overall form of the dagger. It brings to mind so many things, even the quillions immediately made me think of a mid 19thC bandsmans sword. I'm sure its coincidental, but I find these similarities interesting.

What can you tell us about its history/origins Robert?

Battara · 23rd October 2010, 10:08 PM

Although the blade doesn't, the rest of it looks Luzono, perhaps first republic Philippines, perhaps belonging to an officer. Which auction? I missed that one.

Robert · 23rd October 2010, 10:42 PM

Gene,
It does have a nice mix of styles doesn't it. That's one of the things that I thought interesting about it.
Jose,
The blade is a bit of an odd bird but I do have another Philippine dagger and a sword with similar blade styles. I will post a picture of the dagger below as I would like to find a little more information on it also as it looks to be of Visayans construction instead of Luzon. I was wondering about the sun on the scabbard of this dagger not being inside a triangle as most that I have seen have been? As far as age, I was thinking 1895-1900? What would be you thoughts on this?

Robert

Battara · 24th October 2010, 07:21 AM

After thinking about it a little more, I would guess that it were perhaps 1895-1897. I say this because the Malaysian sun was used by some Katipunan groups.

If it were inside the triangle and had 3 stars, it would be during the 1st republic (1898-1901).

The last one I would agree looks somewhat Visayan.

Robert · 24th October 2010, 07:39 AM

Thank you for your thoughts on the dating Jose. Now, if only it were only possible to identify who it might have belonged to by the initials I would be ecstatic.

Robert

Ferguson · 24th October 2010, 02:07 PM

Robert, that's beautiful.
It would be great if we could find somewhere a comprehensive listing of Katipunan officers.

Steve

Robert · 24th October 2010, 05:11 PM

Thank you Steve. Yes it would be great to have a comprehensive listing of Katipunan officers but I'm not sure one exist. If it does I am sure that Jose, Migueldiaz, Dimasalang or possibly others on the forum would know about it.

Robert

Dimasalang · 24th October 2010, 08:13 PM

Very nice dagger! Definitely of the Katipunan to Phil-Am War era, but still difficult to place. Going by flags, to me looks like it is from either the Tejeros Convention or the 1st Republic. The sunface is a old design for sure, BUT one with "8" rays is more widely used from the Tejeros Convention flag and the 1st Republic Flag. Aguinaldo and his Magdalo Katipunan group of the Revolution are more associated to the 8 sun ray flag(no face)...the rival Magdiwang group had 16 rays(no face). The face did not appear on any flag until the Tejeros Convention(March 22, 1897). The kicker is there exist a Katipunan medallion that belonged to Bonifacio, and it also has a sunface with 8 rays....but these early sunface symbols(on flags, stamps, blades, medals, etc...) are extremely rare of the earlier Bonifacio Katipunan days(1892-1896).

But for this dagger I would lean more towards the Tejeros Convention and 1st Republic...simply because these nicer custom made daggers were more common of that time frame, and not so much from the earlier Katipunan days.

I actually looked at my own list of officers I made. Only two names stand out of officers.
Francisco Gamboa
Faustino Guillermo

Gamboa was a renegade 1st Republic soldier of Albay who lasted out in the field a few years after the Phil-Am War...in 1905 he was gun down by the PC. Guillermo is actually well known by historians who study the early era. Guillermo was an original Katipunan member who ran with Bonifacio...and later joined the 1st Republic as a Captain. And later after the Phil-Am War, he ran as a labeled outlaw/bandit leader under Gen San Miguel. US Military report Guillermo as second or third in command with his own force of 300-500 men. He was captured a few months after San Miguels death in 1903. Guillermo was tried and hanged in 1904. He is considered an unsung hero.

Robert · 25th October 2010, 02:02 AM

Dimasalang, Thank you very much for your help with trying to get an accurate dating on this dagger and for the information on dating the sunface design. What would be your thoughts on the blade design? Do you think it possible that it was made for someone who was originally from the Visayan region or something else entirely?

Thanks again.

Robert

migueldiaz · 25th October 2010, 03:11 PM

Robert, nice dagger, congrats! I've really got nothing to add, especially after Dimasalang's usual in-depth comments

baatar108 · 25th October 2010, 04:22 PM

is the hilt horn?

Robert · 25th October 2010, 04:47 PM

Hello baatar108,
Yes, the hilt is carabao (water buffalo) horn. The fittings look to be either nickel silver, silver or silver plate. I won't be sure until it arrives.

Robert

Dimasalang · 25th October 2010, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

Dimasalang, Thank you very much for your help with trying to get an accurate dating on this dagger and for the information on dating the sunface design. What would be your thoughts on the blade design? Do you think it possible that it was made for someone who was originally from the Visayan region or something else entirely?

Thanks again.

Robert

These are still difficult to place. Your dagger looks to follow suit with all the ones that come from Luzon. But I remember the Leandro Fullon dagger that was posted here also, which looks similar.(what ever happened to those photos?) And Fullon was a native of Antique(Visayas). Aguinaldo appointed him one of the commanding generals for Visayas. This is my own guess, but I believe Aguinaldo had several daggers made(along with their uniforms) for his high ranking officers and generals and sent these daggers out to them even if they were far from Luzon...they all seem to be somewhat similar to one another, particularly the sheath. I have yet to see other daggers similar in style that came from the Visayas region(prior to or after the Phil-Am War). Lorenz and Nacho would more likely know. If there are, please let me know too.

Off topic:
Interesting, I just found out Leaodro Fullon was born in March 1877, which places him as one of the youngest Filipino generals that I did not know about...there have always been big debates of who was the youngest, Gregorio Del Pilar or Manuel Tinio...Fullon was never brought in to the picture. Tinio still edges Fullon out as the youngest by 2 months. Learn something new everyday!

David · 25th October 2010, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dimasalang

But I remember the Leandro Fullon dagger that was posted here also, which looks similar.
Off topic:
Interesting, I just found out Leaodro Fullon was born in March 1877, which places him as one of the youngest Filipino generals that I did not know about...there have always been big debates of who was the youngest, Gregorio Del Pilar or Manuel Tinio...Fullon was never brought in to the picture. Tinio still edges Fullon out as the youngest by 2 months. Learn something new everyday!

Those images were never posted directly to the forum. The link in now gone. This is why we always encourage direct uploads to this site of all your photographic examples.
Bill, perhaps you can be convinced to upload these to this thread again for reference. It certainly is a beautiful and historic dagger which would be helpful for further reference.

Bill M · 26th October 2010, 04:55 AM

David, just noticed this. Will upload photos. Add here or start new thread?

David · 26th October 2010, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill M

David, just noticed this. Will upload photos. Add here or start new thread?

Thanks Bill. I'd say add here as it seems to relate to this subject. Though it certainly is a dagger worthy of it's own thread...

Bill M · 27th October 2010, 12:45 AM

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...398#post110398

Robert · 27th October 2010, 09:20 PM

Bill, Thank you for posting the link to your dagger, it is very nice indeed!!

Robert

carlos · 29th October 2010, 10:43 AM

woooowww!!

this is a great adquisition, I saw this dagger in the web but the seller ask me too much money to my wallet!!

I´m happy to see you are the new owner!
Best regards
carlos

Nonoy Tan · 29th October 2010, 01:35 PM

Congratulations, Robert.

Robert · 29th October 2010, 03:29 PM

Carlos and Nonoy Tan, Thank you both for your kind words. I just wish that the dagger would hurry up and arrive as the wait is making me a nervous wreak !!

Robert

Robert · 1st November 2010, 08:07 PM

Well, the dagger arrived today and after a light cleaning to the hilt there were a few pleasant surprises. The fittings are of silver and not silver plate as I thought they might be and the horn hilt is also decorated with silver insets. Sorry about the picture quality but the light outside as well as inside didn't want to cooperate. I have not cleaned the blade or put everything in ren wax yet. All comments are welcomed.

Robert

Dimasalang · 1st November 2010, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

Well, the dagger arrived today and after a light cleaning to the hilt there were a few pleasant surprises. The fittings are of silver and not silver plate as I thought they might be and the horn hilt is also decorated with silver insets. Sorry about the picture quality but the light outside as well as inside didn't want to cooperate. I have not cleaned the blade or put everything in ren wax yet. All comments are welcomed.

Robert

Wow that cleaned up good! Didn't even notice the insets on the handle in the original photos. Handle reminds me of the other Philippine dagger I posted (the one that got away).

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10723

Battara · 1st November 2010, 10:31 PM

You are not kidding. This is a great piece and I am so glad you posted it here for future research and reference.

Even though I don't expect anything, etch the blade anyway just in case there is lamination. You never know.

I also wonder if the "G" is for gral, the Filipino term for general.

carlos · 1st November 2010, 11:34 PM

Woooooooow!!!! I think if the seller of the dagger had cleaned dagger like you , I had bought it!! Is a amazing dagger, congratulations!!
best regards
carlos

Robert · 2nd November 2010, 12:52 AM

Dimasalang, Jose and Carlos,
Thank you all for your kind words. This is now the highlight of my collection. I only wish that there was some way to identify who it originally belonged to. I tried to do a light etch on the blade but nothing appeared.

I am not disappointed though. Here is a slightly better (I hope) picture showing the engraving. Thank you all again.

Robert

23rd October 2010, 06:37 PM	#1
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	A Very Nice Dagger Hello, I located this at an on-line sales house the other day and just had to post these pictures. Please excuse the poor picture quality as they are the ones from the sales house. I believe that the initials are FG but I'm not sure. The only measurement I have is a total length of about 15 inches for the dagger out of the sheath. Comments would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. Robert Attached Images Last edited by Robert Coleman; 23rd October 2010 at 07:18 PM.

23rd October 2010, 09:27 PM	#5
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Its a wonderful 'cocktail' of styles. The engraving is superb. I love the shape and overall form of the dagger. It brings to mind so many things, even the quillions immediately made me think of a mid 19thC bandsmans sword. I'm sure its coincidental, but I find these similarities interesting. What can you tell us about its history/origins Robert? Attached Images

23rd October 2010, 10:42 PM	#7
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Gene, It does have a nice mix of styles doesn't it. That's one of the things that I thought interesting about it. Jose, The blade is a bit of an odd bird but I do have another Philippine dagger and a sword with similar blade styles. I will post a picture of the dagger below as I would like to find a little more information on it also as it looks to be of Visayans construction instead of Luzon. I was wondering about the sun on the scabbard of this dagger not being inside a triangle as most that I have seen have been? As far as age, I was thinking 1895-1900? What would be you thoughts on this? Robert Attached Images

24th October 2010, 07:39 AM	#9
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Thank you for your thoughts on the dating Jose. Now, if only it were only possible to identify who it might have belonged to by the initials I would be ecstatic. Robert Last edited by Robert Coleman; 24th October 2010 at 08:17 AM.

25th October 2010, 04:47 PM	#16
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello baatar108, Yes, the hilt is carabao (water buffalo) horn. The fittings look to be either nickel silver, silver or silver plate. I won't be sure until it arrives. Robert Attached Images

23rd October 2010, 08:14 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Nice find

23rd October 2010, 08:16 PM	#3
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Will it be joining your collection soon Robert? Its a beauty. Rather gothic!

23rd October 2010, 09:12 PM	#4
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Lew and Gene, Thank you both for your comments. It is on its way now to join the rest of my collection. I hope to post better pictures after it arrives and the actual measurements as well. Robert

23rd October 2010, 10:08 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Although the blade doesn't, the rest of it looks Luzono, perhaps first republic Philippines, perhaps belonging to an officer. Which auction? I missed that one.

24th October 2010, 07:21 AM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	After thinking about it a little more, I would guess that it were perhaps 1895-1897. I say this because the Malaysian sun was used by some Katipunan groups. If it were inside the triangle and had 3 stars, it would be during the 1st republic (1898-1901). The last one I would agree looks somewhat Visayan.

24th October 2010, 02:07 PM	#10
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	Robert, that's beautiful. It would be great if we could find somewhere a comprehensive listing of Katipunan officers. Steve

24th October 2010, 05:11 PM	#11
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Thank you Steve. Yes it would be great to have a comprehensive listing of Katipunan officers but I'm not sure one exist. If it does I am sure that Jose, Migueldiaz, Dimasalang or possibly others on the forum would know about it. Robert

24th October 2010, 08:13 PM	#12
Dimasalang Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 264	Very nice dagger! Definitely of the Katipunan to Phil-Am War era, but still difficult to place. Going by flags, to me looks like it is from either the Tejeros Convention or the 1st Republic. The sunface is a old design for sure, BUT one with "8" rays is more widely used from the Tejeros Convention flag and the 1st Republic Flag. Aguinaldo and his Magdalo Katipunan group of the Revolution are more associated to the 8 sun ray flag(no face)...the rival Magdiwang group had 16 rays(no face). The face did not appear on any flag until the Tejeros Convention(March 22, 1897). The kicker is there exist a Katipunan medallion that belonged to Bonifacio, and it also has a sunface with 8 rays....but these early sunface symbols(on flags, stamps, blades, medals, etc...) are extremely rare of the earlier Bonifacio Katipunan days(1892-1896). But for this dagger I would lean more towards the Tejeros Convention and 1st Republic...simply because these nicer custom made daggers were more common of that time frame, and not so much from the earlier Katipunan days. I actually looked at my own list of officers I made. Only two names stand out of officers. Francisco Gamboa Faustino Guillermo Gamboa was a renegade 1st Republic soldier of Albay who lasted out in the field a few years after the Phil-Am War...in 1905 he was gun down by the PC. Guillermo is actually well known by historians who study the early era. Guillermo was an original Katipunan member who ran with Bonifacio...and later joined the 1st Republic as a Captain. And later after the Phil-Am War, he ran as a labeled outlaw/bandit leader under Gen San Miguel. US Military report Guillermo as second or third in command with his own force of 300-500 men. He was captured a few months after San Miguels death in 1903. Guillermo was tried and hanged in 1904. He is considered an unsung hero.

25th October 2010, 02:02 AM	#13
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Dimasalang, Thank you very much for your help with trying to get an accurate dating on this dagger and for the information on dating the sunface design. What would be your thoughts on the blade design? Do you think it possible that it was made for someone who was originally from the Visayan region or something else entirely? Thanks again. Robert

25th October 2010, 03:11 PM	#14
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Robert, nice dagger, congrats! I've really got nothing to add, especially after Dimasalang's usual in-depth comments

25th October 2010, 04:22 PM	#15
baatar108 Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: New Mexico-Santa Fe Posts: 9	is the hilt horn?

26th October 2010, 04:55 AM	#19
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	David, just noticed this. Will upload photos. Add here or start new thread?

27th October 2010, 12:45 AM	#21
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...398#post110398

27th October 2010, 09:20 PM	#22
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Bill, Thank you for posting the link to your dagger, it is very nice indeed!! Robert

29th October 2010, 10:43 AM	#23
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 731	woooowww!! this is a great adquisition, I saw this dagger in the web but the seller ask me too much money to my wallet!! I´m happy to see you are the new owner! Best regards carlos

29th October 2010, 01:35 PM	#24
Nonoy Tan Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 293	Congratulations, Robert.

29th October 2010, 03:29 PM	#25
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Carlos and Nonoy Tan, Thank you both for your kind words. I just wish that the dagger would hurry up and arrive as the wait is making me a nervous wreak !! Robert

1st November 2010, 08:07 PM	#26
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Well, the dagger arrived today and after a light cleaning to the hilt there were a few pleasant surprises. The fittings are of silver and not silver plate as I thought they might be and the horn hilt is also decorated with silver insets. Sorry about the picture quality but the light outside as well as inside didn't want to cooperate. I have not cleaned the blade or put everything in ren wax yet. All comments are welcomed. Robert Attached Images

1st November 2010, 10:31 PM	#28
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	You are not kidding. This is a great piece and I am so glad you posted it here for future research and reference. Even though I don't expect anything, etch the blade anyway just in case there is lamination. You never know. I also wonder if the "G" is for gral, the Filipino term for general.

1st November 2010, 11:34 PM	#29
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 731	Wooowwww Woooooooow!!!! I think if the seller of the dagger had cleaned dagger like you , I had bought it!! Is a amazing dagger, congratulations!! best regards carlos

2nd November 2010, 12:52 AM	#30
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Dimasalang, Jose and Carlos, Thank you all for your kind words. This is now the highlight of my collection. I only wish that there was some way to identify who it originally belonged to. I tried to do a light etch on the blade but nothing appeared. I am not disappointed though. Here is a slightly better (I hope) picture showing the engraving. Thank you all again. Robert Attached Images