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Old 26th December 2017, 05:34 PM   #1
Paul B.
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Default kris identification needed

Hello!

Hope everybody had a wonderful X-mas and we running fast towards the end of this year! So herewith all the best to you and your beloved.

My question is simple and straight. What do I have here: an East-Java sheath or rather West-Java because of the double lip which is seen in Pesisiran area krisses.
The blade is not the proper one and doesn't fit well at all so refrain from showing it. It probably distracts.
Anyone having a clue?
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Old 26th December 2017, 08:33 PM   #2
Marcokeris
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nice!! i think Central-East
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Old 26th December 2017, 09:34 PM   #3
kai
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Hello Paul,

Quote:
What do I have here: an East-Java sheath or rather West-Java because of the double lip which is seen in Pesisiran area krisses.

No definite answer from me either; however, I'd lean towards a more western attribution: Banten, Cirebon, maybe even Tegal, too...

Please post a view from directly above - the third dimension of this scabbard may help to narrow things down!

Regards,
Kai
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Old 26th December 2017, 09:37 PM   #4
A. G. Maisey
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What is the overall length of this scabbard?

There is a type of gayaman wrongko which is attributed to Tegal that has each end of the gambar dipping down, instead of flat or up.

A gandar that has its top section with kruwingan and its bottom section with no kruwingan and no ada-ada is common in Bali keris.

In chapter 6, figure 68 Jensen names a similar wrongko to this one under discussion as "gayaman Solo type", which it is not, some characteristics of Jensen's "Solo type" are Madura or North East Jawa.

I do not know where this wrongko under discussion might come from, but it does possess individual features that can be aligned with:- Tegal, Madura, Bali, North East Jawa.

Take your pick

Last edited by A. G. Maisey : 26th December 2017 at 11:17 PM.
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Old 27th December 2017, 12:50 AM   #5
kai
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Hello Alan,

Quote:
There is a type of gayaman wrongko which is attributed to Tegal that has each end of the gambar dipping down, instead of flat or up.

Do you know of any examples of this type which exhibit the "double lip" Paul pointed to?

This "double lip" seems to be a feature restricted to the other North coast scabbard type AFAIK. It is an even more common (though by no means universal) feature of early collected (Kunstkammer) scabbards and, thus, very likely to have very old roots.


Quote:
A gandar that has its top section with kruwingan and its bottom section with no kruwingan and no ada-ada is common in Bali keris.

There are also quite some traditional scabbards attributed to Cirebon which display this feature. I wonder whether this may also have old roots popping up in different extant cultural contexts (and, thus, making it difficult to use it to narrow down the origin of Paul's variant scabbard)?

Regards,
Kai
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Old 27th December 2017, 02:34 AM   #6
A. G. Maisey
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Kai, I cannot recall ever having seen this "double lip" as in Paul's scabbard.

Bargello, Dresden State Museum holdings, Copenhagen (including the Royal Kunstkammer), Oriental in Venice, Mangkunegaraan, Radya Pustaka, Surakarta Karaton, the old Musium Pusat in Jakarta --- I've come up empty. Then I can add the uncountable number of keris and keris dress that I've seen, handled, or owned over my lifetime. Empty.

Might have seen it, but cannot recall having done so.

Can you point me at some other examples of this style?

Cirebon and North Coast gandar sometimes have kruwingan, but usually with an ada-ada in the bottom half.

Unusual features can occur in any artifact that has not been produced in a controlled environment. Where the wearer of a keris has freedom of expression, unseen variations can occur. Any area that is under the control of a kraton will be restricted by the relevant karaton styles and mores. Where freedom of expression exists both craftsmen and their clients can come up with all sorts of previously unseen variations and interpretations.

Actually, I seem to recall that Jensen shows a similar scabbard to Paul's that he calls a Solo style, but its is not, it is Madura/East Jawa, and that has a ridge on the face, not dissimilar to Paul's. I'd look it up if I could, but my copy of Kris Disk won't run properly.
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Old 27th December 2017, 05:14 AM   #7
Paul B.
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Thanks gentlemen and I will add a few more pics later.

@ Alan: is this the Solo Gayaman from Jensen? I checked the disk and only came across this fig. 68 and it might have a double hanging down lip but the pic is to vague to be sure.
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Old 27th December 2017, 01:54 PM   #8
kai
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Hello Alan,

Quote:
I cannot recall ever having seen this "double lip" as in Paul's scabbard.

I'm attaching a pic of Kai Wee's keris exhibiting an IMHO related feature: The contour running up at the left side of the scabbard (i. e. the shorter end when the outside is on display) fully continues as an engraved line towards the left tip resulting in two "lips" rather than just a single upper rim as in most keris scabbards.

This feature is also seen in Wien #91.919 and probably Skokloster #6959/7042; some of the Kunstkammer scabbards exhibit an essentially identical line running towards the tip (some have chipped tips a few may not reach the tip though):
Sendai
Dresden #2897
Dresden #2896

And a stone sculpture referred to the 15th/16th century also shows the "double lip" feature (Museum Nasional Jakarta 310d) very clearly! (Cp. Weihrauch 2001, Fig. 18.)


Quote:
Cirebon and North Coast gandar sometimes have kruwingan, but usually with an ada-ada in the bottom half.

True, these tend to have an ada-ada to continue towards the tip. However, some seem to have this ridge tethering out and also the Kunstkammer keris scabbards seem to exhibit quite a bit of variability...


Quote:
I'd look it up if I could, but my copy of Kris Disk won't run properly.

That sucks. Try to clean it (polishing away scratches may be a resort) and load a copy of the PDFs on your computer (and digital back-up)...

If your CD is dead, a fellow collector may be able to assist, too.

Regards,
Kai
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