Bali wedding Keris

chregu · 9th February 2010, 07:15 PM

Seeking information for this wedding Bali Wedding Keris
am grateful for any information
gruss chregu

David · 9th February 2010, 11:03 PM

What makes this a "wedding keris" per se? Do you have provenance to that effect?

Battara · 10th February 2010, 02:30 AM

Last time I saw the description "wedding keris" was on a Czerny's auction and the hilt was silver and Balinese in the form of a rakshasa.

A. G. Maisey · 10th February 2010, 08:15 AM

Maybe somebody wore it at a wedding?

guwaya · 10th February 2010, 11:08 AM

[/QUOTE]
Maybe it was sold as that?!

asomotif · 10th February 2010, 12:30 PM

I once read that in the past, when a man was not able to attend his own wedding, the wife could marry with his keris as a personification/substitute of the man.

Is there any thruth in this story ?

Ps. my wife would definately not agree to such a procedure

BluErf · 10th February 2010, 02:08 PM

We've all heard this story, but never witnessed it in modern times...

Anyhow, I'd imagine if this was ever done, it was probably some high status men taking a concubine, or designed to snub the in-laws.

My guess...

David · 10th February 2010, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Maybe somebody wore it at a wedding?

Well that's why i asked if there was provenance of this. I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem to me that there is any particular form of dress or keris that is specifically for weddings and i just wanted to be sure that no one was getting the impression that this is what a keris used in a Balinese wedding need look like.
Kai Wee, i think that you are probably correct. If you were busy high ranking nobility marrying you third concubine and couldn't be bothered showing up for your wedding this was probably something you could do. I do not believe that this was a general practice or one that just anybody could get away with.

chregu · 10th February 2010, 06:10 PM

good evening together
I've chewed the keris 3 years ago, the salesman told me that.
I bought this keris in Switzerland. from one of really should know. Martin Kerner, he's book author, keris handles from the Malay Archipelago.
I am not a specialist keris, almost everyone can tell me anything. smile.
so I'm glad to be in this forum and to hear other opinions too.
So, what think you know what kind of a keris?
gruss chregu

David · 10th February 2010, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chregu

So, what think you know what kind of a keris?

I am not sure what you mean exactly by this "kind" of keris. It is a fairly average Bali style keris in a form of Balinese formal dress (in regards to the sheath) which would, i suppose, make it appropriately dressed for a wedding.

This sheath appears to be a fairly well carved one and looks to be of ebony and some other wood on the stem. The blade doesn not have the typical Balinese, high polished surface and stain. Could be it was restained outside of Bali or it might be from Lombok where the high polish staining was not always used. The handle looks like a somewhat low quality version of what i have heard many describe as a Bayu hilt, though i am not certain if this is actually supposed to depict Bayu (a wind god) or not. I cannot tell if it is just brass or if a god plating has been added over it, but the "stones" seem to be mostly pastes or low quality stones. I have attached an example of a higher quality version of this hilt style. This one also mixes pastes with actually stones which is not uncommon in Bali.

Rick · 10th February 2010, 07:06 PM

I recall Sajen's remark in the painted keris thread :
" 1994 I have seen one in an antique shop in Klungkung for sale. When I come back two days later the owner have rent it to someone who want to be married. "

Could it be that this was rented out for weddings ?

In America we rent tuxedos for weddings .

David · 10th February 2010, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I recall Sajen's remark in the painted keris thread :
" 1994 I have seen one in an antique shop in Klungkung for sale. When I come back two days later the owner have rent it to someone who want to be married. "

Could it be that this was rented out for weddings ?

In America we rent tuxedos for weddings .

Seems odd to rent a keris for a wedding given it's cultural significance, but perhaps in recent years it has come to that.
It's only us guys who get away with renting out a tux. Women most usually buy their wedding dresses and they hold greater meaning for them. It would seem to me that a wedding keris would have more significance to the groom than something that can be rented.

Rick · 10th February 2010, 07:33 PM

True, still if you don't have one ; what do you do ?

Most likely we will never know the intention of the description 'Wedding Keris' as stated here .

kulbuntet · 10th February 2010, 07:47 PM

Hi all,

Dave, did you know that you can reconize Bayu from the fan in his hand? Both have one. In old day, Bali golden hilts were only for royals, im not sure iff its allowed to wear a golden hilt on a wedding or other ceremony nowdays. I have seen wedding fotos from bali and on all of them, the groom got a keris on his back with a white Waranka (highly posible ivory), same for the hilt, ivory(white) with silver angcup with gems, or silver hilt with also gems. I remember a post or story from some one that in some ocations the groom wear a rental kers... dont know iff its a tru story. The hilt in the op pic, is "tourist made" I have one here at home.. The stones are not stone.. their pastes or glas. made of brass, in some casses with thin gold layer.

Gustav · 10th February 2010, 08:37 PM

Margaret Wiener, "Visible and invisible realms (power, magic, and colonial conquest in Bali)", page 66 :

"His keris could, in certain contexts, even represent a man: someone who could not attend a meeting could send his keris in his place; a man of rank could marry a low-ranking woman by proxy, using one of his lesser keris. Keris are rather obvious phallic symbols; in marriage rites, the groom still stabs a keris through a small bamboo mat to symbolize the sexual relation between husband and wife even though nowadays his wedding is the only occasion on which a man is still likely to wear a keris."

David · 10th February 2010, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kulbuntet

Hi all,

Dave, did you know that you can reconize Bayu from the fan in his hand? Both have one. In old day, Bali golden hilts were only for royals, im not sure iff its allowed to wear a golden hilt on a wedding or other ceremony nowdays. I have seen wedding fotos from bali and on all of them, the groom got a keris on his back with a white Waranka (highly posible ivory), same for the hilt, ivory(white) with silver angcup with gems, or silver hilt with also gems. I remember a post or story from some one that in some ocations the groom wear a rental kers... dont know iff its a tru story. The hilt in the op pic, is "tourist made" I have one here at home.. The stones are not stone.. their pastes or glas. made of brass, in some casses with thin gold layer.

Yes, thank you, i am aware of the fan in the hand. Still, like all things to do with keris i have heard this attribution disputed. This is why i approach all definite identifications with caution.

I think that in this day and age all restrictions on gold worn by non-royals is most probably gone. After all, Indonesia is not a monarchy.
I also stop short of referring to all but the most obvious keris items as "tourist". Certainly this is a low quality example. Even the one i posted is not on the highest quality. If this keris had indeed been used in a wedding (and i guess this is possible) then this hilt would have seen actually indigenous use. can't really call it tourist then if that were the case. I am sure that in times where money is short people use what they can afford. As i noted this one looks brass w/ mostly pastes. It should be pointed out however that in Bali at least, the use of glass pastes instead of actual stones is not necessarily a sign of poor quality as some very fine Bali hilts will attest to, having pastes mounted right next to sapphires and rubies.

Sajen · 10th February 2010, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kulbuntet

Hi all,

Dave, did you know that you can reconize Bayu from the fan in his hand? Both have one. In old day, Bali golden hilts were only for royals, im not sure iff its allowed to wear a golden hilt on a wedding or other ceremony nowdays. I have seen wedding fotos from bali and on all of them, the groom got a keris on his back with a white Waranka (highly posible ivory), same for the hilt, ivory(white) with silver angcup with gems, or silver hilt with also gems. I remember a post or story from some one that in some ocations the groom wear a rental kers... dont know iff its a tru story. The hilt in the op pic, is "tourist made" I have one here at home.. The stones are not stone.. their pastes or glas. made of brass, in some casses with thin gold layer.

Sorry, I don't think that the hilt tourist made and I think that not all "stones" from glass, the orange one and the milky one on the stomach seems to be real stones and the hilt shows some wear. Of course it's a very simple hilt and the blade is also not very fine worked while the sheat is of better quality.
Maybe a composition? But this is difficult to say by pictures.

A. G. Maisey · 10th February 2010, 08:56 PM

A wife is not the same as a concubine.

Depending upon the the social position of the man,the rank of the wife, and the language used, there are a number of possible names for wives and for concubines. It would serve no purpose to list them all here.

In a Javanese traditional situation of a man having four wives, the first wife is taken from a suitable level of status and is the mother of the heir to the father. The heir will be the first born son of the first wife, but the first wife need not necessarily be the first wife who is married, she could well be the second, third, or even fourth wife married.

Concubines hold a lower status than wives and cannot provide an heir, however in rare cases a man may name a son from a concubine to be his heir.

Not only is the heir not able to be produced from a concubine, except if the father designates him as heir, but concubines do not necessarily need to provide a political or business alliance. The function of the first wife is not only to produce the legitimate heir, but also the political or business alliance obtained by this marriage is expected to be the most important. The other three primary wives, and many of the concubines will also provide political or business alliances, however, a concubine need not necessarily provide a political or business alliance.

Immense problems of succession can arise when a man fails to name one of his wives as his first wife, or if he fails to name his first born son from his first wife as his legitimate heir, or if he names a son other than the first born son from the first wife as his legitimate heir.

The status of wives, concubines and heirs can be a matter of concern in not only royal families, but also in noble and aristocratic families, and in powerful business families. It is not of such great concern in families of lower status and in the modern day where most men have only a single wife, it is obviously of no concern. However, I have been informed that in some rural areas where it is necessary for a farmer to take more than one wife in order to comply with traditional maritial practices following birth of a child, and in order to have sufficient assistance to run his farm, the position of first wife is as highly regarded as in a royal or aristocratic situation.

Against this background, it will be understood that a man's keris should not be used to represent him in his marriage to his official first wife.

The keris may be used in the case of lesser marriages but would normally only be used in the case of extreme necessity preventing the man from attending his wedding. Such necessity could be something such as the man be absent at war.

But in the case of the taking of a concubine the use of the keris to represent the man is completely acceptable.

In this circumstance, the function of the keris is to validate the words spoken on behalf of the absent bridegroom. In a modern day situation that validation is more often provided by a letter of authority.

Gustav · 10th February 2010, 09:26 PM

About wearing of figural, or golden and ivory hilts: Jasper and Mas Pirngadie, De bewerking van niet-edele metalen, page 230, writes:

"Golden and ivory hilts of these four species (deling or togog, lotjeng or grantim, kotjet-kotjettan, djaglir) were weared only by persons, who does belong to the triwangsa (the three casts). Nowadays a man doesn't praktice this rule strictly and one can see also a rich soedra's (shudra's) wearing golden hilts."

Is there any evidence, that this rule wasn't strongly complied already in 19 Century in states with stronger dutch influence? There probably must be some bigger changes in some parts of Bali already after 1860-ties.

But either way, we probably cannot expect, a low quality hilt of one of the four species, made of another material then gold and ivory (and silver?) would be older then beginning of 20 Century.

David · 10th February 2010, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Sorry, I don't think that the hilt tourist made and I think that not all "stones" from glass, the orange one and the milky one on the stomach seems to be real stones and the hilt shows some wear.

i don't think anyone is really suggesting anything different here Sajen. And again i will state that pastes can be found on very high quality Balinese dress as well as low grade like this one.

David · 10th February 2010, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

A wife is not the same as a concubine.

Thanks for clearing this up Alan an for all the addition information.

David · 10th February 2010, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

But either way, we probably cannot expect, a low quality hilt of one of the four species, made of another material then gold and ivory (and silver?) would be older then beginning of 20 Century.

I would imagine that this sheath, though of higher quality than the hilt, is still not particularly old. It too is probably mid to late 20th century.

A. G. Maisey · 11th February 2010, 01:33 AM

In respect of the age of this keris, it is most often very difficult to be particularly accurate with age estimates from photos, however with this keris I am confident that the blade does pre-date WWII. As already noted, the hilt is not of particularly high quality, but I feel it may be older than it looks, and I would be inclined to place it as no later than mid-20th century; the scabbard probably dates from the same period. The wewer is probably not more than ten years old.

David, my perhaps longer than necessary post on wives and concubines was made in an attempt to try to convey the nature of the keris in its representative capacity. Let us not forget that a keris was able to represent its owner in situations other than those associated with the taking of wives or concubines. In the absence of an understanding of the nature of social contracts involving wives and concubines, I feel that it is not possible to understand the nature of the keris in this capacity.

David · 11th February 2010, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, my perhaps longer than necessary post on wives and concubines was made in an attempt to try to convey the nature of the keris in its representative capacity. Let us not forget that a keris was able to represent its owner in situations other than those associated with the taking of wives or concubines. In the absence of an understanding of the nature of social contracts involving wives and concubines, I feel that it is not possible to understand the nature of the keris in this capacity.

Oh Alan, i don't think you need to explain yourself on this one. I got where you were going at least and i can only assume (as dangerous as that is) that others did as well. Nor did i find you post on the subject too long. Hope you didn't think my short comment was meant as a write off.

A. G. Maisey · 11th February 2010, 05:24 AM

Thanks David.

No, it was not your comment. I reread what I had written, and it occurred to me that possibly some might consider that I was blathering a bit, as I had moved right away from the direct comment on keris.

David · 11th February 2010, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thanks David.

No, it was not your comment. I reread what I had written, and it occurred to me that possibly some might consider that I was blathering a bit, as I had moved right away from the direct comment on keris.

Ah, but it is often the indirect commentary that can be most revealing...

chregu · 16th February 2010, 02:12 PM

hello together
Many thanks for your efforts to help me ignorant too. smile.
you still add to that a few better pictures.
The handle is made of brass. the red, green, black and purple "stones" are made of glas
The silver-colored belly, the Orange and brown on the bottom, the orange hiter the leg and below the ear and the head is silver-colored stones are. I think.
Again, summarize the blade handle simple quality mid 20th century Bali
The Sarung good quality mid 20th century also
gruss chregu

9th February 2010, 07:15 PM	#1
chregu Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: switzerland Posts: 298	Bali wedding Keris Seeking information for this wedding Bali Wedding Keris am grateful for any information gruss chregu Attached Images

10th February 2010, 08:37 PM	#15
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,196	Margaret Wiener, "Visible and invisible realms (power, magic, and colonial conquest in Bali)", page 66 : "His keris could, in certain contexts, even represent a man: someone who could not attend a meeting could send his keris in his place; a man of rank could marry a low-ranking woman by proxy, using one of his lesser keris. Keris are rather obvious phallic symbols; in marriage rites, the groom still stabs a keris through a small bamboo mat to symbolize the sexual relation between husband and wife even though nowadays his wedding is the only occasion on which a man is still likely to wear a keris." Last edited by Gustav; 10th February 2010 at 09:52 PM.

10th February 2010, 09:26 PM	#19
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,196	About wearing of figural, or golden and ivory hilts: Jasper and Mas Pirngadie, De bewerking van niet-edele metalen, page 230, writes: "Golden and ivory hilts of these four species (deling or togog, lotjeng or grantim, kotjet-kotjettan, djaglir) were weared only by persons, who does belong to the triwangsa (the three casts). Nowadays a man doesn't praktice this rule strictly and one can see also a rich soedra's (shudra's) wearing golden hilts." Is there any evidence, that this rule wasn't strongly complied already in 19 Century in states with stronger dutch influence? There probably must be some bigger changes in some parts of Bali already after 1860-ties. But either way, we probably cannot expect, a low quality hilt of one of the four species, made of another material then gold and ivory (and silver?) would be older then beginning of 20 Century. Last edited by Gustav; 10th February 2010 at 09:55 PM.

16th February 2010, 02:12 PM	#27
chregu Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: switzerland Posts: 298	hello together Many thanks for your efforts to help me ignorant too. smile. you still add to that a few better pictures. The handle is made of brass. the red, green, black and purple "stones" are made of glas The silver-colored belly, the Orange and brown on the bottom, the orange hiter the leg and below the ear and the head is silver-colored stones are. I think. Again, summarize the blade handle simple quality mid 20th century Bali The Sarung good quality mid 20th century also gruss chregu Attached Images

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9th February 2010, 11:03 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,023	What makes this a "wedding keris" per se? Do you have provenance to that effect?

10th February 2010, 02:30 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Last time I saw the description "wedding keris" was on a Czerny's auction and the hilt was silver and Balinese in the form of a rakshasa.

10th February 2010, 08:15 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	Maybe somebody wore it at a wedding?

10th February 2010, 11:08 AM	#5
guwaya Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 45	[/QUOTE] Maybe it was sold as that?!

10th February 2010, 12:30 PM	#6
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,221	I once read that in the past, when a man was not able to attend his own wedding, the wife could marry with his keris as a personification/substitute of the man. Is there any thruth in this story ? Ps. my wife would definately not agree to such a procedure

10th February 2010, 02:08 PM	#7
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	We've all heard this story, but never witnessed it in modern times... Anyhow, I'd imagine if this was ever done, it was probably some high status men taking a concubine, or designed to snub the in-laws. My guess...

10th February 2010, 06:10 PM	#9
chregu Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: switzerland Posts: 298	good evening together I've chewed the keris 3 years ago, the salesman told me that. I bought this keris in Switzerland. from one of really should know. Martin Kerner, he's book author, keris handles from the Malay Archipelago. I am not a specialist keris, almost everyone can tell me anything. smile. so I'm glad to be in this forum and to hear other opinions too. So, what think you know what kind of a keris? gruss chregu

10th February 2010, 07:06 PM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	I recall Sajen's remark in the painted keris thread : " 1994 I have seen one in an antique shop in Klungkung for sale. When I come back two days later the owner have rent it to someone who want to be married. " Could it be that this was rented out for weddings ? In America we rent tuxedos for weddings .

10th February 2010, 07:33 PM	#13
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	True, still if you don't have one ; what do you do ? Most likely we will never know the intention of the description 'Wedding Keris' as stated here .

10th February 2010, 07:47 PM	#14
kulbuntet Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands Posts: 159	Hi all, Dave, did you know that you can reconize Bayu from the fan in his hand? Both have one. In old day, Bali golden hilts were only for royals, im not sure iff its allowed to wear a golden hilt on a wedding or other ceremony nowdays. I have seen wedding fotos from bali and on all of them, the groom got a keris on his back with a white Waranka (highly posible ivory), same for the hilt, ivory(white) with silver angcup with gems, or silver hilt with also gems. I remember a post or story from some one that in some ocations the groom wear a rental kers... dont know iff its a tru story. The hilt in the op pic, is "tourist made" I have one here at home.. The stones are not stone.. their pastes or glas. made of brass, in some casses with thin gold layer.

10th February 2010, 08:56 PM	#18
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	A wife is not the same as a concubine. Depending upon the the social position of the man,the rank of the wife, and the language used, there are a number of possible names for wives and for concubines. It would serve no purpose to list them all here. In a Javanese traditional situation of a man having four wives, the first wife is taken from a suitable level of status and is the mother of the heir to the father. The heir will be the first born son of the first wife, but the first wife need not necessarily be the first wife who is married, she could well be the second, third, or even fourth wife married. Concubines hold a lower status than wives and cannot provide an heir, however in rare cases a man may name a son from a concubine to be his heir. Not only is the heir not able to be produced from a concubine, except if the father designates him as heir, but concubines do not necessarily need to provide a political or business alliance. The function of the first wife is not only to produce the legitimate heir, but also the political or business alliance obtained by this marriage is expected to be the most important. The other three primary wives, and many of the concubines will also provide political or business alliances, however, a concubine need not necessarily provide a political or business alliance. Immense problems of succession can arise when a man fails to name one of his wives as his first wife, or if he fails to name his first born son from his first wife as his legitimate heir, or if he names a son other than the first born son from the first wife as his legitimate heir. The status of wives, concubines and heirs can be a matter of concern in not only royal families, but also in noble and aristocratic families, and in powerful business families. It is not of such great concern in families of lower status and in the modern day where most men have only a single wife, it is obviously of no concern. However, I have been informed that in some rural areas where it is necessary for a farmer to take more than one wife in order to comply with traditional maritial practices following birth of a child, and in order to have sufficient assistance to run his farm, the position of first wife is as highly regarded as in a royal or aristocratic situation. Against this background, it will be understood that a man's keris should not be used to represent him in his marriage to his official first wife. The keris may be used in the case of lesser marriages but would normally only be used in the case of extreme necessity preventing the man from attending his wedding. Such necessity could be something such as the man be absent at war. But in the case of the taking of a concubine the use of the keris to represent the man is completely acceptable. In this circumstance, the function of the keris is to validate the words spoken on behalf of the absent bridegroom. In a modern day situation that validation is more often provided by a letter of authority.

11th February 2010, 01:33 AM	#23
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	In respect of the age of this keris, it is most often very difficult to be particularly accurate with age estimates from photos, however with this keris I am confident that the blade does pre-date WWII. As already noted, the hilt is not of particularly high quality, but I feel it may be older than it looks, and I would be inclined to place it as no later than mid-20th century; the scabbard probably dates from the same period. The wewer is probably not more than ten years old. David, my perhaps longer than necessary post on wives and concubines was made in an attempt to try to convey the nature of the keris in its representative capacity. Let us not forget that a keris was able to represent its owner in situations other than those associated with the taking of wives or concubines. In the absence of an understanding of the nature of social contracts involving wives and concubines, I feel that it is not possible to understand the nature of the keris in this capacity.

11th February 2010, 05:24 AM	#25
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	Thanks David. No, it was not your comment. I reread what I had written, and it occurred to me that possibly some might consider that I was blathering a bit, as I had moved right away from the direct comment on keris.