Vietnamese talismanic knife?

blue lander · 9th May 2014, 02:47 PM

Just won the auction for this. The seller thought it was Vietnamese from the early 20th century but who knows how he came to that conclusion. It's only 18.5 cm long so it must be some sort of amulet or ritual knife?

The wavy lines on the blade look a lot like the marks you see on Thai dhas and whatnot. I wonder if they're writing or just decoration? I'll clean it up a little when it arrives and take better pictures.

Tim Simmons · 9th May 2014, 04:31 PM

Very interesting. Looking forward to see it cleaned. Is it brass? I am bit unsure about the handle in those pictures. More interesting than most stuff from SE Asia. Looks Burmese? Chindit handle?

blue lander · 9th May 2014, 04:56 PM

The seller didn't mention what the blade was, but he did mention it was over 5mm thick.

It reminds me a lot of those Thai amulet knives, but the writing looks more like Burmese and I've never seen an amulet knife in this shape. They seem to usually look more like miniature E-neps or Kerises.

I've attached two more pictures that show the figure on the hilt better. Seller says it's bone but I bet it's tooth.

Tim Simmons · 9th May 2014, 05:01 PM

I think Burmese without a doubt. Google Chinthe. Just that handle looks funny? It might even be hamster bone {aka vandoo}

blue lander · 9th May 2014, 05:56 PM

That looks like a dead ringer for the figure on the handle. I guess it's Burmese after all. Dare I ask what hamster bone is?

Edit: I just reread the auction description and he says it's a betel nut knife. It doesn't look like any of the betel knives I've seen on google though.

Sajen · 9th May 2014, 10:47 PM

Interesting item! But not a betel knife. Would like to see some better pictures. The handle material look a little bit odd, would like to see some better pictures when you have received it.
Hamster bone

: Barry has written recently in a other thread what people used to describe ivory in ebay and it seems that one seller has described it as hamster bone!

Regards,
Detlef

VANDOO · 10th May 2014, 02:31 AM

ANOTHER POSSIBILITY IS ITS A TOOL RELATED TO OPIUM. THERE IS QUITE A RANGE OF IMPLEMENTS INVOLVED IN ITS PRODUCTION AND USE. I THINK THERE IS SOME OPIUM INFORMATION AND PICTURES IN AN OLD FORUM POST. A NICE AND INTERESTING ITEM I HOPE ITS A TOOTH OR HAMSTER BONE HANDLE

HERES A LINK

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=OPIUM

Andrew · 10th May 2014, 09:25 PM

Thai. My understanding is these are Buddhist ceremonial "knives."

Battara · 11th May 2014, 12:49 AM

Could the pommel be sperm whale tooth?

ariel · 11th May 2014, 01:36 PM

If it is from whale, one sperm would be enough :-)

DAHenkel · 11th May 2014, 04:13 PM

Not my area of expertise but I doubt this is Burmese. I'd say more likely northeast Thai (Esarn) or southern Lao. Could also be Khmer. You sometimes see similar billed as betel knives but would also have served admirably as a utility knife for basketry or other chores. The "magic" symbols do suggest some sort of ceremonial use. Good luck with your research.

blue lander · 11th May 2014, 05:56 PM

Thanks for the tips everyone. There's a bunch of Thai and Burmese restaurants near where I work, maybe I'll bring it around once it arrives and see if anybody there can ID it.

blue lander · 15th May 2014, 08:01 PM

It arrived in the mail today, I'll upload photos when I get home.

The blade has nothing approaching an edge on any sides. So I don't think it was ever meant to do actual work. Either talismanic or a souvenir I guess.

The figure on the handle is definitely not ivory or hamster bone. It doesn't feel cool to the touch or heavy. When I tap it with my fingernail it makes a noise more like glass than ivory or bone or plastic.

I think it's cast, but I don't think it's plastic or at least not typical plastic. It's got what looks like a seam down the front but not in back, and the seam doesn't extend to the base. Only the carved figurine part. So maybe it's a flaw in the material rather than a seam.

I did the "hot needle" test and was able to press into it. The material didn't "glob" like plastic. It peeled out like wood shavings! Some of the peels stuck to the needle, so I held it over the flame to see if it'd melt. But it didn't melt, it glowed red and burned up. So I'm stumped.

Sajen · 15th May 2014, 09:05 PM

I was wondering already when I have seen the pictures if it the same material which is used in Indonesia to fake ivory handles. By this material the hot needle test also don't work and this material is also cast.
Sorry about this bad news!

Regards,
Detlef

blue lander · 15th May 2014, 09:23 PM

The hilt seems to be attached with super glue, so maybe it's a recent repair/addition to a legitimately old knife. Or maybe the whole thing is a sloppy tourist piece.

blue lander · 19th May 2014, 02:55 PM

Here's the pictures.

First up is the writing on both sides of the knife, assuming it is writing. It doesn't look like any writing system I've seen on wikipedia, but it doesn't look like random decorative patterns either. So I assume it is some sort of writing.

Next are closeups of the figure. I still don't know what it's made of. There's a hole going through its mouth. You can see what looks like a seam going down the front, but there's no seam on the back nor is there a seam on the "unshaped" part of the hilt.

blue lander · 19th May 2014, 03:36 PM

Here's a better picture of the front where the seam is. It's pretty obvious from this angle that it's a seam and not a flaw in the material. Also a picture of the back of the head.

I attached a picture of where the blade meets the bolster, it looks to be filled with a natural material like wood. It feels waxy. I think the old handle broke off and this one's a modern replacement. The face isn't even properly aligned with the "edge" of the knife.

Lastly a picture of the "tip" of the knife.

Tim Simmons · 19th May 2014, 04:00 PM

You need to do more research on this piece. Cast glass has been used for centuries. India, China, Asia have been making cast glass beads for centuries. The glue looks like any other natural gum or resin glue. I still think you have an interesting item.

blue lander · 19th May 2014, 04:26 PM

Thank you, I will. The more I look the more I think it's just a "meed mor" Thai amulet knife. I found this one with a very similar handle shape and very similar markings on the blade. Of course the blade shape is completely different.

http://thaiamulets-dhammapath.blogsp...ul-mitmor.html

Edit: It looks like the script is called Khom Thai script, and is used for Buddhist mantras and charms and whatnot.

The "M" looking decorations at the bottom of the knife are apparently a mantra praising Buddha. I still haven't found one with the blade shape of mine, though. There's tons of sites out there about this stuff, maybe I'll send pictures around to them and see what they say.

blue lander · 2nd June 2014, 02:54 PM

I posted some pictures of this thing on a Thai Amulet message board asking if anybody knew what it was. They said it's just a run of the mill "Meed Mor" amulet dagger. But Meed Mors always have pointy tips to them, so I asked why mine had such an usual shape. They said the tip had been broken off.

Now this thing is about 5mm thick so there's no way the tip could have broken off by accident. It would have had to have been done deliberately. Plus it looks nothing like a traditional Meed Mor knife even with the tip broken off, the shape is just completely different. So I think they just didn't know what it was.

ausjulius · 11th June 2014, 05:07 PM

hello , the odd shape of the knife head is typical thai e-toh knife shape..
it is not broken, just crubly made.

9th May 2014, 02:47 PM	#1
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Vietnamese talismanic knife? Just won the auction for this. The seller thought it was Vietnamese from the early 20th century but who knows how he came to that conclusion. It's only 18.5 cm long so it must be some sort of amulet or ritual knife? The wavy lines on the blade look a lot like the marks you see on Thai dhas and whatnot. I wonder if they're writing or just decoration? I'll clean it up a little when it arrives and take better pictures. Attached Images

9th May 2014, 04:56 PM	#3
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	The seller didn't mention what the blade was, but he did mention it was over 5mm thick. It reminds me a lot of those Thai amulet knives, but the writing looks more like Burmese and I've never seen an amulet knife in this shape. They seem to usually look more like miniature E-neps or Kerises. I've attached two more pictures that show the figure on the hilt better. Seller says it's bone but I bet it's tooth. Attached Images

9th May 2014, 05:56 PM	#5
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	That looks like a dead ringer for the figure on the handle. I guess it's Burmese after all. Dare I ask what hamster bone is? Edit: I just reread the auction description and he says it's a betel nut knife. It doesn't look like any of the betel knives I've seen on google though. Last edited by blue lander; 9th May 2014 at 07:15 PM.

19th May 2014, 02:55 PM	#16
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Here's the pictures. First up is the writing on both sides of the knife, assuming it is writing. It doesn't look like any writing system I've seen on wikipedia, but it doesn't look like random decorative patterns either. So I assume it is some sort of writing. Next are closeups of the figure. I still don't know what it's made of. There's a hole going through its mouth. You can see what looks like a seam going down the front, but there's no seam on the back nor is there a seam on the "unshaped" part of the hilt. Attached Images

19th May 2014, 03:36 PM	#17
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Here's a better picture of the front where the seam is. It's pretty obvious from this angle that it's a seam and not a flaw in the material. Also a picture of the back of the head. I attached a picture of where the blade meets the bolster, it looks to be filled with a natural material like wood. It feels waxy. I think the old handle broke off and this one's a modern replacement. The face isn't even properly aligned with the "edge" of the knife. Lastly a picture of the "tip" of the knife. Attached Images

9th May 2014, 04:31 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,736	Very interesting. Looking forward to see it cleaned. Is it brass? I am bit unsure about the handle in those pictures. More interesting than most stuff from SE Asia. Looks Burmese? Chindit handle?

9th May 2014, 05:01 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,736	I think Burmese without a doubt. Google Chinthe. Just that handle looks funny? It might even be hamster bone {aka vandoo}

9th May 2014, 10:47 PM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,469	Interesting item! But not a betel knife. Would like to see some better pictures. The handle material look a little bit odd, would like to see some better pictures when you have received it. Hamster bone : Barry has written recently in a other thread what people used to describe ivory in ebay and it seems that one seller has described it as hamster bone! Regards, Detlef

10th May 2014, 02:31 AM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	ANOTHER POSSIBILITY IS ITS A TOOL RELATED TO OPIUM. THERE IS QUITE A RANGE OF IMPLEMENTS INVOLVED IN ITS PRODUCTION AND USE. I THINK THERE IS SOME OPIUM INFORMATION AND PICTURES IN AN OLD FORUM POST. A NICE AND INTERESTING ITEM I HOPE ITS A TOOTH OR HAMSTER BONE HANDLE HERES A LINK http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=OPIUM

10th May 2014, 09:25 PM	#8
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Thai. My understanding is these are Buddhist ceremonial "knives."

11th May 2014, 12:49 AM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Could the pommel be sperm whale tooth?

11th May 2014, 01:36 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	If it is from whale, one sperm would be enough :-)

11th May 2014, 04:13 PM	#11
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	Not my area of expertise but I doubt this is Burmese. I'd say more likely northeast Thai (Esarn) or southern Lao. Could also be Khmer. You sometimes see similar billed as betel knives but would also have served admirably as a utility knife for basketry or other chores. The "magic" symbols do suggest some sort of ceremonial use. Good luck with your research.

11th May 2014, 05:56 PM	#12
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Thanks for the tips everyone. There's a bunch of Thai and Burmese restaurants near where I work, maybe I'll bring it around once it arrives and see if anybody there can ID it.

15th May 2014, 08:01 PM	#13
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	It arrived in the mail today, I'll upload photos when I get home. The blade has nothing approaching an edge on any sides. So I don't think it was ever meant to do actual work. Either talismanic or a souvenir I guess. The figure on the handle is definitely not ivory or hamster bone. It doesn't feel cool to the touch or heavy. When I tap it with my fingernail it makes a noise more like glass than ivory or bone or plastic. I think it's cast, but I don't think it's plastic or at least not typical plastic. It's got what looks like a seam down the front but not in back, and the seam doesn't extend to the base. Only the carved figurine part. So maybe it's a flaw in the material rather than a seam. I did the "hot needle" test and was able to press into it. The material didn't "glob" like plastic. It peeled out like wood shavings! Some of the peels stuck to the needle, so I held it over the flame to see if it'd melt. But it didn't melt, it glowed red and burned up. So I'm stumped.

15th May 2014, 09:05 PM	#14
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,469	I was wondering already when I have seen the pictures if it the same material which is used in Indonesia to fake ivory handles. By this material the hot needle test also don't work and this material is also cast. Sorry about this bad news! Regards, Detlef

15th May 2014, 09:23 PM	#15
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	The hilt seems to be attached with super glue, so maybe it's a recent repair/addition to a legitimately old knife. Or maybe the whole thing is a sloppy tourist piece.

19th May 2014, 04:00 PM	#18
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,736	You need to do more research on this piece. Cast glass has been used for centuries. India, China, Asia have been making cast glass beads for centuries. The glue looks like any other natural gum or resin glue. I still think you have an interesting item.

19th May 2014, 04:26 PM	#19
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Thank you, I will. The more I look the more I think it's just a "meed mor" Thai amulet knife. I found this one with a very similar handle shape and very similar markings on the blade. Of course the blade shape is completely different. http://thaiamulets-dhammapath.blogsp...ul-mitmor.html Edit: It looks like the script is called Khom Thai script, and is used for Buddhist mantras and charms and whatnot. The "M" looking decorations at the bottom of the knife are apparently a mantra praising Buddha. I still haven't found one with the blade shape of mine, though. There's tons of sites out there about this stuff, maybe I'll send pictures around to them and see what they say. Attached Images Last edited by blue lander; 19th May 2014 at 10:44 PM.

2nd June 2014, 02:54 PM	#20
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	I posted some pictures of this thing on a Thai Amulet message board asking if anybody knew what it was. They said it's just a run of the mill "Meed Mor" amulet dagger. But Meed Mors always have pointy tips to them, so I asked why mine had such an usual shape. They said the tip had been broken off. Now this thing is about 5mm thick so there's no way the tip could have broken off by accident. It would have had to have been done deliberately. Plus it looks nothing like a traditional Meed Mor knife even with the tip broken off, the shape is just completely different. So I think they just didn't know what it was.

11th June 2014, 05:07 PM	#21
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 415	hello , the odd shape of the knife head is typical thai e-toh knife shape.. it is not broken, just crubly made.