Paternosters on blades

Jim McDougall · 28th July 2022, 05:16 PM

Much of the 'lore' of weapons, particularly of course, the sword, is found in the creatively written and often highly embellished works of literature. Without elaborating, here is an example which may apply to our discussion:

"...lay thy hand upon the cross of the sword, say a paternoster over in thy heart, and thou shalt be protected from the mischief of this inquisition".
"Abdalla the Moor and the Spanish Knight: A Romance
of Mexico" (1839, p.34)
Robert Montgomery Bird 1806-1854)
The tale is set in the early 16th century.

We may wonder if this passage, though not describing the same dots or holes but the act of reciting a paternoster on a sword, might have been read or somehow known by Burton and transmitted in his book in 1884. Burton, who was a well known scholar of the sword, seems to have used varying degrees of license in his landmark reference on the history of the sword.

fernando · 28th July 2022, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Burton, who was a well known scholar of the sword, seems to have used varying degrees of license in his landmark reference on the history of the sword...

Funny thing, i have just read a blogger out there precisely suggesting that, concerning this subject, Burton was certainly giving wings to his imagination.

I'm inclined to think that Burton ran across this somewhere and invented an explanation to suit himself, though it's possible that the blade could have even been called a "Paternoster blade" before he saw it. A number of things are called "paternoster" because they're seen as analagous to beads on a string, and certainly the illustration shows rows of dots. To a Victorian observer, it may have seemed likely that the word implied some real connection with prayer.
(Courtesy Chris Laning)

On the other hand, i would accept that depressions of a determined type on a sword blade may be regarded by some as paternoster or rosary, just like many other implements bear the same name, though not with an intrinsic religious implication; only by the looks of it.

Jim McDougall · 28th July 2022, 09:11 PM

As I had noted, the Burton reference was one of my earliest, and as such of course always held a great deal of reverence (?) in my thinking, but after many years and learning, I began to suspect that that alone must not restrict my recognizing newer evidence and thought. Clearly it is obvious that many others have also seen this.

I can think of numerous examples of course, but these are not salient to this discussion. I was just reading through "The Smallsword in England" (Aylward, 1945) and here is an author who was a stickler on detail, as well as describing blade decoration and features remarkably. But throughout his descriptions of the often religious motif and inscriptions , there is no mention of these kinds of feature on blades which might pertain to rosary or paternosters.

While this does not suggest that such practice or decoration did not exist, it does not seem to be part of the broader spectrum of such application on blades.

It does seem that these kinds of observations toward certain features and elements on swords extend into those of other ethnic groups as well, such as beaded strings on the hilts of some Islamic swords which are deemed to represent the Family of the Prophet. In other cases the channels with sliding orbs inserted in blades which are termed 'tears of the wounded' and other such names. In many cases such associations become somewhat fanciful and it is held that their validity is mostly a matter of the perspective of the person observing.
It would seem likely this applies here as well.

Still, to see examples of actual blades with groupings of these dots would be interesting, so the search continues.

Jim McDougall · 31st July 2022, 03:33 AM

Still searching for more on the 'pasternoster' question. No luck locating images of swords with configurations of dots pierced through blade or simply depressions hollowed out.

In the times of chivalry, the consciousness of religious piety and symbolism was of course profoundly known, and the sword in itself a symbol of this. The paternoster was a key element of this symbolism as well, and it should be noted that the term was used to denote a string of prayer beads in general, and did not apply any association with a particular type of devotion.

It seems then that this term as a simile relating to these beads pertained to any consecutive pattern resembling beads in this manner. While clearly not related to swords, this example uses the term thus,

In 1565 Queen Elizabeth I gave the Isle of Sark (one of the Channel Islands off Normandy) to Helier de Carteret on conditions including placement of 40 men there to defend from the French. When a ship of families from Jersey sent there approached, they were wrecked upon the Pierre de Lecq rocks and all perished, including many children.
In the many years after, passing fishermen would say prayers observing these rocks as they did so, to pray for the children lost.....these rocks then became known as the 'Paternosters' accordingly.

With sword blades, among the ideal circumstances is to have a lighter blade, and it seems that one notion was to pierce the blade with holes through. While it became apparent that this would compromise the strength of the blade, it does seem the practice remained in degree with some artistically or status oriented swords. The more effective manner of lightening was of course channels or fullers.

Whatever the case, it seems likely that in the rather dramatic manner of using the paternoster simile as with the rocks, holes in a blade might be perceived as having to do with prayers and invocations as with a rosary. This may well have remained in sense even with the hollowed designs with holes or patterned depressions.

fernando · 31st July 2022, 01:39 PM

Jim where did you get that picture; those are the ugliest rocks i have ever seen

..
Amazing, all sources i can find out there under the names rosary or paternoster never refer to sword blades decorations. I have tried Portuguese and Spanish (as i could) sources and found zero results.

Here from the Oxford Universal Dictionary

.

Interested Party · 31st July 2022, 03:58 PM

Interesting. I am looking forward to seeing some examples. I had one blade that was almost a candidate, it was a European blade that had spent time in Indonesia. Sadly, it had only 3 large holes and 4 small ones. I am not convinced they weren't added by an unscrupulous seller at some point. It seems that the dots typically would be in denominations of 10, 50, or 150 representing Psalms plus the gauds or large beads for a Paternostro. A Rosery can have several versions depending on the purpose ordered in "decades." I am attaching a link to a short summary on prayer beads I found that includes a small bibliography. Actually, quite topically enlightening and not linked to a commercial site that I can find.

http://www.paternoster-row.medievalscotland.org/

Jim McDougall · 31st July 2022, 07:50 PM

Yup Fernando, definitely not postcard material!!!

That is the point, there is no widespread presence of the paternoster term being used in sword nomenclature or terminology, in fact virtually none. It is only in the often unexpected material presented in Burton that this is presented as some sort of known practice or representation.

Interested party, thank you for your observations and good points. The presence of rapier blades with openwork panels in the blade center/fuller suggests that pierced blades were known in degree. These do not however qualify with reference to paternosters. I know there are examples out there with holes or dots, but have yet to find them.

Well noted that if intended to represent actual rosary beads, there would be significant numbers in those large denominations, but the simile comparing the holes is just that, a comparison in colloquial sense much as with the rocks.
To recite prayers accompanied by a physical object (bead or rock) is the intended note, not necessarily the number.

The objective here is to find blade examples with holes (as suggested by the authors I noted, often in transverse and vertical lines of holes. Also to find this term used in sword descriptions and/or referred to in any of the sword literature.

28th July 2022, 05:16 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Much of the 'lore' of weapons, particularly of course, the sword, is found in the creatively written and often highly embellished works of literature. Without elaborating, here is an example which may apply to our discussion: "...lay thy hand upon the cross of the sword, say a paternoster over in thy heart, and thou shalt be protected from the mischief of this inquisition". "Abdalla the Moor and the Spanish Knight: A Romance of Mexico" (1839, p.34) Robert Montgomery Bird 1806-1854) The tale is set in the early 16th century. We may wonder if this passage, though not describing the same dots or holes but the act of reciting a paternoster on a sword, might have been read or somehow known by Burton and transmitted in his book in 1884. Burton, who was a well known scholar of the sword, seems to have used varying degrees of license in his landmark reference on the history of the sword. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 28th July 2022 at 06:09 PM.

31st July 2022, 03:33 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Still searching for more on the 'pasternoster' question. No luck locating images of swords with configurations of dots pierced through blade or simply depressions hollowed out. In the times of chivalry, the consciousness of religious piety and symbolism was of course profoundly known, and the sword in itself a symbol of this. The paternoster was a key element of this symbolism as well, and it should be noted that the term was used to denote a string of prayer beads in general, and did not apply any association with a particular type of devotion. It seems then that this term as a simile relating to these beads pertained to any consecutive pattern resembling beads in this manner. While clearly not related to swords, this example uses the term thus, In 1565 Queen Elizabeth I gave the Isle of Sark (one of the Channel Islands off Normandy) to Helier de Carteret on conditions including placement of 40 men there to defend from the French. When a ship of families from Jersey sent there approached, they were wrecked upon the Pierre de Lecq rocks and all perished, including many children. In the many years after, passing fishermen would say prayers observing these rocks as they did so, to pray for the children lost.....these rocks then became known as the 'Paternosters' accordingly. With sword blades, among the ideal circumstances is to have a lighter blade, and it seems that one notion was to pierce the blade with holes through. While it became apparent that this would compromise the strength of the blade, it does seem the practice remained in degree with some artistically or status oriented swords. The more effective manner of lightening was of course channels or fullers. Whatever the case, it seems likely that in the rather dramatic manner of using the paternoster simile as with the rocks, holes in a blade might be perceived as having to do with prayers and invocations as with a rosary. This may well have remained in sense even with the hollowed designs with holes or patterned depressions. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 31st July 2022 at 09:21 AM.

31st July 2022, 01:39 PM	#5
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,649	Jim where did you get that picture; those are the ugliest rocks i have ever seen .. Amazing, all sources i can find out there under the names rosary or paternoster never refer to sword blades decorations. I have tried Portuguese and Spanish (as i could) sources and found zero results. Here from the Oxford Universal Dictionary . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 31st July 2022 at 03:59 PM.

28th July 2022, 09:11 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	As I had noted, the Burton reference was one of my earliest, and as such of course always held a great deal of reverence (?) in my thinking, but after many years and learning, I began to suspect that that alone must not restrict my recognizing newer evidence and thought. Clearly it is obvious that many others have also seen this. I can think of numerous examples of course, but these are not salient to this discussion. I was just reading through "The Smallsword in England" (Aylward, 1945) and here is an author who was a stickler on detail, as well as describing blade decoration and features remarkably. But throughout his descriptions of the often religious motif and inscriptions , there is no mention of these kinds of feature on blades which might pertain to rosary or paternosters. While this does not suggest that such practice or decoration did not exist, it does not seem to be part of the broader spectrum of such application on blades. It does seem that these kinds of observations toward certain features and elements on swords extend into those of other ethnic groups as well, such as beaded strings on the hilts of some Islamic swords which are deemed to represent the Family of the Prophet. In other cases the channels with sliding orbs inserted in blades which are termed 'tears of the wounded' and other such names. In many cases such associations become somewhat fanciful and it is held that their validity is mostly a matter of the perspective of the person observing. It would seem likely this applies here as well. Still, to see examples of actual blades with groupings of these dots would be interesting, so the search continues.

31st July 2022, 03:58 PM	#6
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 392	Interesting. I am looking forward to seeing some examples. I had one blade that was almost a candidate, it was a European blade that had spent time in Indonesia. Sadly, it had only 3 large holes and 4 small ones. I am not convinced they weren't added by an unscrupulous seller at some point. It seems that the dots typically would be in denominations of 10, 50, or 150 representing Psalms plus the gauds or large beads for a Paternostro. A Rosery can have several versions depending on the purpose ordered in "decades." I am attaching a link to a short summary on prayer beads I found that includes a small bibliography. Actually, quite topically enlightening and not linked to a commercial site that I can find. http://www.paternoster-row.medievalscotland.org/

31st July 2022, 07:50 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Yup Fernando, definitely not postcard material!!! That is the point, there is no widespread presence of the paternoster term being used in sword nomenclature or terminology, in fact virtually none. It is only in the often unexpected material presented in Burton that this is presented as some sort of known practice or representation. Interested party, thank you for your observations and good points. The presence of rapier blades with openwork panels in the blade center/fuller suggests that pierced blades were known in degree. These do not however qualify with reference to paternosters. I know there are examples out there with holes or dots, but have yet to find them. Well noted that if intended to represent actual rosary beads, there would be significant numbers in those large denominations, but the simile comparing the holes is just that, a comparison in colloquial sense much as with the rocks. To recite prayers accompanied by a physical object (bead or rock) is the intended note, not necessarily the number. The objective here is to find blade examples with holes (as suggested by the authors I noted, often in transverse and vertical lines of holes. Also to find this term used in sword descriptions and/or referred to in any of the sword literature.