Enigma

Kubur · 27th April 2019, 09:43 PM

Hi guys

I know very well the rules of this forum and i will post photos of the whole sword.
But my question has some sense only if i can get some ideas and opinions about the blade first.
What do you think about this blade, origin, date????
thanks

Kubur

broadaxe · 27th April 2019, 10:12 PM

Supposedly German Passau made, 16th century.

Edster · 27th April 2019, 11:03 PM

Ah,ha. That's what they want you to believe. These marks can be made easily by anyone who wishes. The fuller is high quality so must be European, Indian or Persian, but I suspect only European would have made the mark. The top mark has some highlights like it was made recently. But of course it could be very early Solingen.

Regards,
Ed

kahnjar1 · 27th April 2019, 11:49 PM

Do I see the remains of some lettering in the fuller? Think you need to post a full pic.

Jim McDougall · 28th April 2019, 12:17 AM

That is a pretty standard edition of the so called 'running wolf', and pretty good condition. The blade is pretty much an 'arming' blade and these were basically Solingen trade blades of 17th into 18th c. often with this type of central fuller.
While the 'Passau' wolf began with knife makers in Passau, it was later picked up by Solingen smiths and I believe Wagner (1967) claimed it began being placed on blades produced in Solingen for Passau armorers. It seems that it gradually became more broadly used in Solingen on a wide range of blades.
These were not by any means a standardized mark, nor indicator of any particular maker, and variations of these chiseled marks were many .

Wagner shows a chart of these accompanied by years, however there is no chronological development in reality, they were simply varied by the worker who applied them. Its as Ed notes, these could be, and have been spuriously applied (hands on examination better to confirm) but this mark corresponds to the most commonly seen versions.
These were not as commonly copied in most ethnographic centers, as the so called 'sickle' marks were, though many have the idea they were. Actually the only place outside Europe I know of that copied them was in Chechen centers such as Ataghi, in the 19th c.

Kubur · 28th April 2019, 10:05 PM

Hi guys
thank you for your comments, i agree totally of course.
Now I own a few solingen passau blades and i know how they should look like.This blade looks like a 16 17th c. blade. If its a copy it's an amazing copy.
Now this blade comes with a jineta hilt.
The guard / hilt connection looks machine cut sp it's a 19th c. copy.
BUT the hilt is finely engraved, tombak covered and decorated with glass stones and turquoises like eastern European swords.
I looked at all the 19th c. jineta copies sold the past 15 years and this one is far above the best ones that I've seen on line.
It's a mystery for me... I'll post some photos and i hope some members will be able to give me the origin of this 19th c. copy...

Jim McDougall · 29th April 2019, 11:23 PM

Kubur, while you are a seasoned collector and arms scholar, I know you initiated this thread concerning the Passau wolf as a kind of exercise, so if I may elaborate a bit further for the benefit of readers on this topic.

I have attached the panel of exemplars of variations of the 'running wolf' which was used both in Passau as well as more extensively in Solingen. It is believed its use began in Passau as a knifemakers mark in about 14th c. This plate of examples is from Wagner, "Cut and Thrust Weapons" Prague, 1967, p.109).
It appears that the plate originates in 'Zeitschrift fur Historiche Waffenkunde" Vol. III, p.312.

As I noted earlier, I do not personally believe these date classifications signify any reliable chronology of development, but more examples drawn from blades of these date periods.

In Wagner (p.107) he notes that Solingen maker Iohannes Wundes (1560-1620) used the Passau wolf on consignments for Passau merchants supplying the Passau mercenaries of Archduke Leopold V.
Passau was a key center for the assembly of mercenary soldiers and as such, was also a center for armourers who furnished weaponry and war goods for these forces. It appears that Solingen makers began to use the mark more broadly as it became associated with one of the standard 'quality' markings.

TVV · 29th April 2019, 11:27 PM

Could it be a case of an old blade mounted with a newly made jineta hilt in the 19th century? Or is there anything about the blade that allows us to confirm it as a copy as well, because based on the pictures alone I would have a very hard time determining whether this is an authentic old blade or not.

Jim McDougall · 29th April 2019, 11:42 PM

I agree with Teodor, it is really hard to determine the vintage of a blade from photos, the flash tends to brighten even age darkened spots in metal. The character of the stamped figure seems to well correspond to examples as seen in this panel of 'wolf' images.
Certainly the blade, as with many over generations, may have bee remounted, but the hilt and overall view of the sword often gives very helpful context for consideration.

Kubur · 30th April 2019, 08:07 PM

I agree with both of you
here is the animal, imho one of the best 19th c copy of a jineta far superior of the Toledo acid etched blades...

Jim McDougall · 30th April 2019, 09:57 PM

That REALLY is attractive OK!!! I have always thought these jineta type swords incredibly attractive, especially having been swept up in the 'El Cid' thing when a young guy (yeah I know these were not in step with the period, but then what did I know!) .
The authentic examples of these are incredibly rare of course, and the modern 'souveniers' are , well, just that.
But in Victorian times they were inclined to produce some pretty solid examples recalling the authentic pieces. Actually these became authentic antiques in their own right, as seen with your example.
The use of an authentic early blade is an especially nice touch.

That is a 'hanger' that would make any wall proud

27th April 2019, 09:43 PM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Enigma Hi guys I know very well the rules of this forum and i will post photos of the whole sword. But my question has some sense only if i can get some ideas and opinions about the blade first. What do you think about this blade, origin, date???? thanks Kubur Attached Images

27th April 2019, 11:03 PM	#3
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 389	Ah,ha. That's what they want you to believe. These marks can be made easily by anyone who wishes. The fuller is high quality so must be European, Indian or Persian, but I suspect only European would have made the mark. The top mark has some highlights like it was made recently. But of course it could be very early Solingen. Regards, Ed Last edited by Edster; 27th April 2019 at 11:30 PM.

29th April 2019, 11:23 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,735	Kubur, while you are a seasoned collector and arms scholar, I know you initiated this thread concerning the Passau wolf as a kind of exercise, so if I may elaborate a bit further for the benefit of readers on this topic. I have attached the panel of exemplars of variations of the 'running wolf' which was used both in Passau as well as more extensively in Solingen. It is believed its use began in Passau as a knifemakers mark in about 14th c. This plate of examples is from Wagner, "Cut and Thrust Weapons" Prague, 1967, p.109). It appears that the plate originates in 'Zeitschrift fur Historiche Waffenkunde" Vol. III, p.312. As I noted earlier, I do not personally believe these date classifications signify any reliable chronology of development, but more examples drawn from blades of these date periods. In Wagner (p.107) he notes that Solingen maker Iohannes Wundes (1560-1620) used the Passau wolf on consignments for Passau merchants supplying the Passau mercenaries of Archduke Leopold V. Passau was a key center for the assembly of mercenary soldiers and as such, was also a center for armourers who furnished weaponry and war goods for these forces. It appears that Solingen makers began to use the mark more broadly as it became associated with one of the standard 'quality' markings. Attached Images

30th April 2019, 08:07 PM	#10
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I agree with both of you here is the animal, imho one of the best 19th c copy of a jineta far superior of the Toledo acid etched blades... Attached Images

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27th April 2019, 10:12 PM	#2
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	Supposedly German Passau made, 16th century.

27th April 2019, 11:49 PM	#4
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,728	Do I see the remains of some lettering in the fuller? Think you need to post a full pic.

28th April 2019, 12:17 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,735	That is a pretty standard edition of the so called 'running wolf', and pretty good condition. The blade is pretty much an 'arming' blade and these were basically Solingen trade blades of 17th into 18th c. often with this type of central fuller. While the 'Passau' wolf began with knife makers in Passau, it was later picked up by Solingen smiths and I believe Wagner (1967) claimed it began being placed on blades produced in Solingen for Passau armorers. It seems that it gradually became more broadly used in Solingen on a wide range of blades. These were not by any means a standardized mark, nor indicator of any particular maker, and variations of these chiseled marks were many . Wagner shows a chart of these accompanied by years, however there is no chronological development in reality, they were simply varied by the worker who applied them. Its as Ed notes, these could be, and have been spuriously applied (hands on examination better to confirm) but this mark corresponds to the most commonly seen versions. These were not as commonly copied in most ethnographic centers, as the so called 'sickle' marks were, though many have the idea they were. Actually the only place outside Europe I know of that copied them was in Chechen centers such as Ataghi, in the 19th c.

28th April 2019, 10:05 PM	#6
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi guys thank you for your comments, i agree totally of course. Now I own a few solingen passau blades and i know how they should look like.This blade looks like a 16 17th c. blade. If its a copy it's an amazing copy. Now this blade comes with a jineta hilt. The guard / hilt connection looks machine cut sp it's a 19th c. copy. BUT the hilt is finely engraved, tombak covered and decorated with glass stones and turquoises like eastern European swords. I looked at all the 19th c. jineta copies sold the past 15 years and this one is far above the best ones that I've seen on line. It's a mystery for me... I'll post some photos and i hope some members will be able to give me the origin of this 19th c. copy...

29th April 2019, 11:27 PM	#8
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,597	Could it be a case of an old blade mounted with a newly made jineta hilt in the 19th century? Or is there anything about the blade that allows us to confirm it as a copy as well, because based on the pictures alone I would have a very hard time determining whether this is an authentic old blade or not.

29th April 2019, 11:42 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,735	I agree with Teodor, it is really hard to determine the vintage of a blade from photos, the flash tends to brighten even age darkened spots in metal. The character of the stamped figure seems to well correspond to examples as seen in this panel of 'wolf' images. Certainly the blade, as with many over generations, may have bee remounted, but the hilt and overall view of the sword often gives very helpful context for consideration.

30th April 2019, 09:57 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,735	That REALLY is attractive OK!!! I have always thought these jineta type swords incredibly attractive, especially having been swept up in the 'El Cid' thing when a young guy (yeah I know these were not in step with the period, but then what did I know!) . The authentic examples of these are incredibly rare of course, and the modern 'souveniers' are , well, just that. But in Victorian times they were inclined to produce some pretty solid examples recalling the authentic pieces. Actually these became authentic antiques in their own right, as seen with your example. The use of an authentic early blade is an especially nice touch. That is a 'hanger' that would make any wall proud