Collecting:- opinions sought

Jean · 27th April 2013, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Q1.
does knowledge of the society, culture and history from which a collected item come enhance the pursuit of collecting those items?

Q2.
if the response to Q1. is "yes, it does", is it a reasonable expectation that the majority of collectors would attempt to improve their knowledge in these areas ?

Q3.
if the response to Q1. is "no, it does not", can the reasons why it does not be identified ?

Hello Alan,
I mostly concur with what has been said by the other members. As I used to collect other artifacts than Indonesian krisses (such as old Omani ethnic jewelry and silver artifacts), my reply will be more general.
Q1: Yes, but for me the pursuit of the knowledge of the society, culture, and history was not the immediate priority, but it came naturally after developing a strong interest in the collected items and a sufficient collection.

Q2: Not necessarily, many collectors will satisfy themselves jut by improving their knowledge about the specific type of item collected only and ignore or neglect the cultural environment.

Q3: In many cases it is very difficult to get acquainted with a foreign culture and society related to a type of collected item: for instance I lived in Indonesia and worked closely with Indonesians (most of them were Javanese) for 3 years and learnt very little from them because of societal and cultural barriers. In Oman I found that very little had been written or even transmitted orally by the locals concerning their ethnographic treasures, for instance the origin of the pieces and meaning of the silver decoration motifs. Of course the language is a major barrier.

Best regards

A. G. Maisey · 27th April 2013, 01:17 PM

Thank you Barry and Jean.

It seems that everybody agrees that the act of collecting, is enhanced by knowledge of the background to the article collected.

It also seems that once we get past that initial recognition that knowledge enhances collection everybody seems to take a slightly different position.

As I stated at the outset:- I asked these questions to help my own understanding, and I appreciate the contribution you people are making to that understanding. I'm not yet quite sure what I am learning from this exercise, but it is re-enforcing a point of view that I have held for many years, and that is that the majority of collectors in any field are primarily that:- collectors. They have little interest in the objects that they collect apart from the physical being of the objects. The background to those objects seems to be something that is not of very much interest, and hence receives much less attention than the objects.

I feel that not only am I learning something here, but we all are, so I do hope that the opinions will continue to flow.

Thank you.

guwaya · 28th April 2013, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

"... that the majority of collectors in any field are primarily that:- collectors. They have little interest in the objects that they collect apart from the physical being of the objects."

Thank you.

A statement which reflects my own opinion, the question is just 'why is this so?' and 'what does collecting mean for the person or what is the intention of collecting?' (But these questions can be hired first).

In my opinion there are two ways of collecting:

1) Collecting special objects or a group of objects (e.g. edged weapons in general) with the aim to acquire as much different objects as possible. The interests of this group of collectors are more the aspects of the technical work and quality of craftmanship and possibly also an aesthetic point of view, etc.. Some superficial cultural background information are a positive side effect but rather of miner interest for this group of collectors.

2) Collecting grew out of an interest in a culture and was more present in former times I suppose. This assertion is among others to recognize in the partially short essays appeared in scientific periodicals. The authors were mostly persons who lived for a longer while in a foreign culture and over the time certain objects aroused their interest with the result, that they entered deeper in the significance of the object for the culture. They learned, that material culture represents the different cultural aspects of the group and that they could 'read' a lot out of the item. Those people possibly started to collect special objects but within a reasonable quantum.

For me the collecting of ethnographic art is inevitably connected with an interest in the culture it comes from - it is the materialized image of this culture.

Unfortunately the "background to those objects seems to be something that is not of very much interest, and hence receives much less attention than the objects." (A. G. Maisey). This trend seems to continue immensly fast - a result of our quickly changing times?

Regards,
guwaya

rasjid · 28th April 2013, 12:55 AM

Hi Alan and forum members,

Yes, I do believe society, cultural, place of origin, etc affect us in how we collect things. In Keris specifically we can say few stages happen:
1. Learning stages: u only listen and absorb:dangerous stage

with limited knowledge - possibility get burnt if you are not carefull. This is also depending on who is your local ring ( people you know and telling you) could be local n possibly overseas. Thanks to internet n this forum as well.
2. Absorb, study/ research and comparing to what you really want to achieve. At this stage early stage information and also your background knowledge play a part. (Your previous knowledge, etc like Jean mentioned in previous post)
I myself, like to see the harmony in keris. Not only on the Keris itself with their pamor material or design, their slorok, garap, estimate of age, etc. But also their accessories: handle, rongko etc. All have to be in harmony. You can't put keris kodean into cendono rongko with suoso pendok.
3. Maybe after all two points above happens, we are coming at the stage either to stop collecting (caused burnt to much or wrong in making decisions or your partner want to leave you....) or just slowing down re-arrange what you want, review and either making one for your self or wait until a good one arrived within your budget.

Regards
Rasjid

A. G. Maisey · 28th April 2013, 03:28 AM

Thank you Guwaya and Rasjid.

We seem to be getting into a more general discussion now, so I'm going to make a few remarks of my own.

My questions were directed at collecting in general, not specifically at keris.

I do not really identify myself as a collector of keris. I used to be, but these days I spend much more time, and money, on research and learning about the keris than I do on collecting, in fact I have begun to downsize my collection, whilst at the same time increasing my involvement in learning, not about the keris as such, but rather about all that is behind what we can see.

I collect other things:- pocket knives, paper weights, ivories, watches, small carvings, keris hilts (as distinct from keris). About these things that I only collect, rather than study, I know almost nothing:- I can classify them, name them, describe them, value them, but I know just about nothing apart from that. I wallow in ignorance, and I feel no need to learn more about these other things, I simply appreciate the object. The exception is of course keris hilts, which overlaps my interest in keris.

So possibly the collector is a person who just appreciates and understands what he can see, possibly he feels no need to delve into those matters associated with his collecting interest, which he cannot see.

27th April 2013, 01:17 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,742	Thank you Barry and Jean. It seems that everybody agrees that the act of collecting, is enhanced by knowledge of the background to the article collected. It also seems that once we get past that initial recognition that knowledge enhances collection everybody seems to take a slightly different position. As I stated at the outset:- I asked these questions to help my own understanding, and I appreciate the contribution you people are making to that understanding. I'm not yet quite sure what I am learning from this exercise, but it is re-enforcing a point of view that I have held for many years, and that is that the majority of collectors in any field are primarily that:- collectors. They have little interest in the objects that they collect apart from the physical being of the objects. The background to those objects seems to be something that is not of very much interest, and hence receives much less attention than the objects. I feel that not only am I learning something here, but we all are, so I do hope that the opinions will continue to flow. Thank you.

28th April 2013, 12:55 AM	#4
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	Hi Alan and forum members, Yes, I do believe society, cultural, place of origin, etc affect us in how we collect things. In Keris specifically we can say few stages happen: 1. Learning stages: u only listen and absorb:dangerous stage with limited knowledge - possibility get burnt if you are not carefull. This is also depending on who is your local ring ( people you know and telling you) could be local n possibly overseas. Thanks to internet n this forum as well. 2. Absorb, study/ research and comparing to what you really want to achieve. At this stage early stage information and also your background knowledge play a part. (Your previous knowledge, etc like Jean mentioned in previous post) I myself, like to see the harmony in keris. Not only on the Keris itself with their pamor material or design, their slorok, garap, estimate of age, etc. But also their accessories: handle, rongko etc. All have to be in harmony. You can't put keris kodean into cendono rongko with suoso pendok. 3. Maybe after all two points above happens, we are coming at the stage either to stop collecting (caused burnt to much or wrong in making decisions or your partner want to leave you....) or just slowing down re-arrange what you want, review and either making one for your self or wait until a good one arrived within your budget. Regards Rasjid

28th April 2013, 03:28 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,742	Thank you Guwaya and Rasjid. We seem to be getting into a more general discussion now, so I'm going to make a few remarks of my own. My questions were directed at collecting in general, not specifically at keris. I do not really identify myself as a collector of keris. I used to be, but these days I spend much more time, and money, on research and learning about the keris than I do on collecting, in fact I have begun to downsize my collection, whilst at the same time increasing my involvement in learning, not about the keris as such, but rather about all that is behind what we can see. I collect other things:- pocket knives, paper weights, ivories, watches, small carvings, keris hilts (as distinct from keris). About these things that I only collect, rather than study, I know almost nothing:- I can classify them, name them, describe them, value them, but I know just about nothing apart from that. I wallow in ignorance, and I feel no need to learn more about these other things, I simply appreciate the object. The exception is of course keris hilts, which overlaps my interest in keris. So possibly the collector is a person who just appreciates and understands what he can see, possibly he feels no need to delve into those matters associated with his collecting interest, which he cannot see.