Sudanese crocodile dagger set.

RomaRana · 9th May 2006, 09:43 PM

I have wanted one of these for the longest time, and now I have one.

Jens Nordlunde · 9th May 2006, 09:53 PM

Hi RomaRana,
I would recomend a search, as I remember the same discussion a few year ago.
I am sorry I cant help you myself, as I don't know anything about it.
Maybe Jim will come up with something.

katana · 9th May 2006, 10:01 PM

Very nice dagger set RomaRana, The first time I seen one before. How are they worn on the body?

RomaRana · 9th May 2006, 10:11 PM

From the earlier discussions, as well as a display at the American Museum of Natural history the dagger set represents a survival of the totemic worship of the crocodile.

The crocodile motif is also used on kaskaras and mace sets with two curved daggers (with a central horned figural mace replacing the center dagger).

I have some pictures from the Museum that I will post showing a mace/dagger set and kaskara.

As to how it is worn I am not sure, there is no belt loop or harness system. I would Imagine it was thrust into the belt.

Earlier discussion

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=triple+dagger

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002161.html

katana · 10th May 2006, 09:12 PM

Hi RomaRana, one of the two threads you kindly listed mentions that the sheaths were worn around the neck or on the shoulder. I found this on the web that is relavent to the thread. I would assume this is the neck 'version'.

DAGGERS/CASE [90.1/ 6160 A]
AFRICAN ETHNOGRAPHIC COLLECTION
Locale: KHARTOUM
Country: SUDAN
Material: HIDE,METAL(IRON),CLOTH,CORD,LEATHER
Dimensions: L:20.5 W:14 [in CM]
Donor: SAWYER
Acquisition Year: 1930

Tim Simmons · 10th May 2006, 09:48 PM

They are great.
I am not sure it is crocodile worship here. These are generally from the Sudan and Egypt where Islam has been established for centuries. If these are connected to the Mahdist movement, they could be from the pagan peoples/slaves in his army where in sub Saharan Africa the crocodile is associated with royal power. The use of crocodile parts could signify authority and as these look more like a talisman than a practical weapon they may have been used by a mind bender to tell you to run to the guns. Very nice!

Mapico1 · 15th May 2006, 03:17 PM

Hi,I would like to show you a simular examples I sold 2 months ago but my images are 420KB and I can't bring them in here.I will try again........

Mapico1 · 15th May 2006, 03:48 PM

Sold this two months ago...

katana · 15th May 2006, 04:50 PM

Very nice Mapico.
I've just purchased this group of African pieces, in the listing the crocodile sheath has been paired with some spear heads.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWN%3AIT&rd=1

RomaRana · 15th May 2006, 09:47 PM

Mapico1, the set you posted reminds me of the mace set I saw because of the horns on the daggers. The mace (sculpted to look like a head) had very simmilar horns.

Katana, that's a great find (at a great price). Those daggers do belong where the spear heads are. Hope they did not damage the sheath.

RomaRana · 15th May 2006, 09:56 PM

I am having a problem finding what the mace is listed under but here it is next to a kaskara.

ariel · 16th May 2006, 12:01 AM

The mace looks like an Iranian, Qajar dynasty. I guess the Sudani owner might have just put them together but, IMHO, there is no thematic connection.

9th May 2006, 09:43 PM	#1
RomaRana Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 58	Sudanese crocodile dagger set. I have wanted one of these for the longest time, and now I have one. Attached Images

10th May 2006, 09:12 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi RomaRana, one of the two threads you kindly listed mentions that the sheaths were worn around the neck or on the shoulder. I found this on the web that is relavent to the thread. I would assume this is the neck 'version'. DAGGERS/CASE [90.1/ 6160 A] AFRICAN ETHNOGRAPHIC COLLECTION Locale: KHARTOUM Country: SUDAN Material: HIDE,METAL(IRON),CLOTH,CORD,LEATHER Dimensions: L:20.5 W:14 [in CM] Donor: SAWYER Acquisition Year: 1930 Attached Images

15th May 2006, 03:48 PM	#8
Mapico1 Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 86	Sudan crocodile triple dagger Sold this two months ago... Attached Images

15th May 2006, 04:50 PM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Very nice Mapico. I've just purchased this group of African pieces, in the listing the crocodile sheath has been paired with some spear heads. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWN%3AIT&rd=1 Last edited by katana; 16th May 2006 at 02:25 PM. Reason: Felt that I was intruding on the thread, decided to remove & post new thread

15th May 2006, 09:47 PM	#10
RomaRana Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 58	Mapico1, the set you posted reminds me of the mace set I saw because of the horns on the daggers. The mace (sculpted to look like a head) had very simmilar horns. Katana, that's a great find (at a great price). Those daggers do belong where the spear heads are. Hope they did not damage the sheath. Last edited by RomaRana; 15th May 2006 at 10:07 PM.

9th May 2006, 09:53 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Hi RomaRana, I would recomend a search, as I remember the same discussion a few year ago. I am sorry I cant help you myself, as I don't know anything about it. Maybe Jim will come up with something.

9th May 2006, 10:01 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Very nice dagger set RomaRana, The first time I seen one before. How are they worn on the body?

9th May 2006, 10:11 PM	#4
RomaRana Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 58	From the earlier discussions, as well as a display at the American Museum of Natural history the dagger set represents a survival of the totemic worship of the crocodile. The crocodile motif is also used on kaskaras and mace sets with two curved daggers (with a central horned figural mace replacing the center dagger). I have some pictures from the Museum that I will post showing a mace/dagger set and kaskara. As to how it is worn I am not sure, there is no belt loop or harness system. I would Imagine it was thrust into the belt. Earlier discussion http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=triple+dagger http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002161.html

10th May 2006, 09:48 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	They are great. I am not sure it is crocodile worship here. These are generally from the Sudan and Egypt where Islam has been established for centuries. If these are connected to the Mahdist movement, they could be from the pagan peoples/slaves in his army where in sub Saharan Africa the crocodile is associated with royal power. The use of crocodile parts could signify authority and as these look more like a talisman than a practical weapon they may have been used by a mind bender to tell you to run to the guns. Very nice!

15th May 2006, 03:17 PM	#7
Mapico1 Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 86	Hi,I would like to show you a simular examples I sold 2 months ago but my images are 420KB and I can't bring them in here.I will try again........

15th May 2006, 09:56 PM	#11
RomaRana Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 58	I am having a problem finding what the mace is listed under but here it is next to a kaskara.

16th May 2006, 12:01 AM	#12
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The mace looks like an Iranian, Qajar dynasty. I guess the Sudani owner might have just put them together but, IMHO, there is no thematic connection.