Dapur of this Javanese keris?

BluErf · 6th April 2010, 02:14 PM

Dear forumnites,

Not sure if I have asked the question in this forum before, but can anyone tell me what dapur is this keris? Thanks.

ganjawulung · 6th April 2010, 02:55 PM

Seven luks, with details of gandhik 'lugas' (without sekar kacang), tikel alis, pejetan, sraweyan, ada-ada in the middle of the blade. Then IMHO, it could be a "jaran guyang", but had been modified a little bit. Because a "jaran guyang" should have greneng, but this could have been modified. There is also trace of change on the 'wadidang' side above the 'should be' greneng. It should be no trace of "ron dha nunut"...

The naming of the dhapur itself, literally means "horse" (jaran) "taken a bath" (guyang, this word is used especially for animal, not for human)...

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 6th April 2010, 11:26 PM

Kai Wee, would it be possible for us to see the top of the gonjo?

The wadidang seems to have a series of notches cut into it. It looks peculiar. Can you see what has happened there?

Is the gandik as steeply angled as it appears to be in the photos?

ganjawulung · 7th April 2010, 01:01 AM

Yes, steep angle ("mboto rubuh") at the gandhik -- and even steeper and visually a little bit shorter (proportion) than usual javanese gandhik, is questionable. Just for comparison, the illustration of dhapur Jaran Guyang (from Mr Haryono Guritno's Keris Jawa book)....

A. G. Maisey · 7th April 2010, 03:04 AM

Pak Ganja, my query was addressed to Kai Wee:- only he can confirm if that gandik is as steeply angled as it appears to be, because only he has access to the physical keris.

I disagree that it is

"---visually a little bit shorter (proportion) than usual javanese gandhik---"

in my opinion it is completely within the parameters for length for a gandik in a Javanese keris, always dependent upon blumbangan form and the level of skill of the maker.

Are you applying the term "mboto rubuh" to the gandik????

I can understand the logic, but it seems a rather unusual usage. Has this usage now become general in some circles?

I don't believe I've ever heard it applied to gandik, only to blumbangan, wherein we have a mboto rubuh in , say, a Pengging keris, and mboto adeg in a Majapahit keris.

ganjawulung · 7th April 2010, 03:48 AM

I apologize, Alan. Then, after Kai Wee' response, I will respond to your post. Thanks a lot...

BluErf · 7th April 2010, 03:43 PM

Thanks for looking at the keris, Alan and Ganjawulung.

Here're the additional pictures.

The series of notches are indeed peculiar. They are just notches cut into the wadidang. It's a bit difficult to take pictures from this angle, but the wadidang does not have any unusual thickness or anything.

The gandik's angle is indeed as steep as shown in the picture.

David · 7th April 2010, 05:47 PM

Madura?

ganjawulung · 7th April 2010, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

...in my opinion it is completely within the parameters for length for a gandik in a Javanese keris, always dependent upon blumbangan form and the level of skill of the maker..

I've asked someone, of course the more knowledgeable person on keris than me, then yes, Alan, I should agree with you on this.. Even that from the peculiar style of luks, it is not impossible that this kind of luks is supposed to be a "pengging" style. Also from the characteristic of the blade, "wilah nglimpa" (I don't know to translate this in English), this blade also has one characteristic of "pengging" style too... (although some part of the blade have changing, i.e the notches at the wadidang...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Are you applying the term "mboto rubuh" to the gandik????
I can understand the logic, but it seems a rather unusual usage. Has this usage now become general in some circles?
I don't believe I've ever heard it applied to gandik, only to blumbangan, wherein we have a mboto rubuh in, say, a Pengging keris, and mboto adeg in a Majapahit keris.

The classification of "mboto rubuh" (falling brick? Correct it if I'm mistaken) and "mboto ngadeg" or "amboto ngadeg" (upright, errect brick) applied in kerises with "gandhik lugas" or no sekar kacang in the "front face" of a keris. And Yes, as Mr Haryono Guritno wrote also in his book "Keris Jawa" (page 166) "amboto rubuh" and "amboto ngadeg" is used for mentioning types (ragam) of "pejetan" or "blumbangan" form of a keris.
On applying the term for gandhik? Yes, some people (might be mistakenly) use this term -- because everytime if we look at kerises with "gandhik lugas", we then automatically classify the kerises, whether they are "amboto ngadeg" or "amboto rubuh"... This "mistakenly usage" also mentioned in Mr Harsrinuksmo's book of Ensiklopedi Keris. Even, Mr Harsrinuksmo described (page 165) that "...khusus untuk gandik yang polos" (especially for gandhik without sekar kacang) "there are two types, those are "amboto rubuh" or "amboto sumende" (leaning brick), and "amboto ngadeg"...
On the meaning of "gandhik" itself, Mr Harsrinuksmo even described in his book that it means literally, as millstone (long and cylindric form of stone, for crushing...).
Why I quote the two writers? As I'm not an expertise on keris, I quote the more knowledgeable people than me. AFAIK, both of them have and had involved so intense in keris world for so long...

Thanks Alan, for your sharing...

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 8th April 2010, 12:53 AM

Thanks for that explanation Pak Ganja.

As to quoting references, I personally favour this approach, as it gives an indication of where an opinion comes from.You have quoted two notable authorities, both of whom use a set of standards that are often outside the standards that I have learnt to apply. I was taught that proper usage of mboto rubuh and mboto adeg was only in reference to the blumbangan, thus it always interests me to see the way in which usage of terminology can develop. As we so very often see, each group of people elect their leader and then follow that leader's opinions, and those opinions are not necessarily universally accepted.

I've always understood mboto rubuh as "fallen brick", that is, like a brick that has already fallen over and is laying on the ground, not "like a falling brick", which would indicate the brick was in the process of falling and is not yet on the ground. This is exactly the way it was explained to me.
This is the reason why I find it peculiar to say that a gandhik is "mboto rubuh" when obviously it is not, and cannot be, as it can never lay horizontal and must always have a degree of verticality.
But then again, mboto rubuh can also mean something like "big time"---I've heard a party described as "pesta mboto rubuh", and I've heard applause described as "mboto rubuh" which I was told was because it was like bricks falling. So, as I said previously, I can understand the logic of describing a gandhik as "mboto rubuh", but it seems very peculiar to me, and when we then extend that idea to "mboto adeg", it seems even stranger:- like a pile of collapsed bricks raising themselves from the dust? Artistically pictorial language is all well and good, as long as it makes some sense.

Similarly, when we classify a keris "mboto adeg", in strict terms, that can only apply to the blumbangan, so a Majapahit keris will always be mboto adeg, because the blumbangan of a Mojo keris will always be mboto adeg. If it is a Mojo keris except for the blumbangan that is not mboto adeg, but, let us say squarish, then we need to classify it between Mojo and Mataram, and we could say it was "Majapahit ke Mataram".

We cannot always say a keris is either mboto adeg or mboto rubuh, because a lot of blumbangan are neither. You cannot give a Mataram blumbangan as mboto rubuh, simply because it is not mboto adeg.

"Wilah limpa" I don't think I've ever heard, and it does not make sense to me. Limpa = spleen. How do we attach that to a keris, or does it have some unique meaning amongst a particular group of people?

EDIT:-
I've thought about what I've written above, and I feel that my remarks require some clarification. Anybody reading what I have written could well draw the conclusion that I am fluent in the Javanese language.

I am not. Indonesian I can handle comfortably, but Javanese is a language I can usually understand, but am not brave enough to use.

Because I am not fluent in Javanese I have found it necessary to make notes of explanations I have been given in Javanese, and then cross-check that explanation or information with others who are fluent in Javanese. I am fortunate in this respect, because I have ready access to half a dozen or so native speakers of Javanese, including my wife.When all else fails, I have a lot of Javanese dictionaries, but I prefer not to use these, as there is a degree of inconsistency in them.

Thus, when I make remarks on the meaning or interpretation of Javanese language, those remarks are mere repetition of opinions or explanations provided by other people.

In respect of Pengging style keris.

Over the years I have seen two distinct and widely different styles of keris identified by respected people as "Pengging".

I have seen a third style identified by less knowledgeable people as "Pengging".

Thus, over time I have seen three different keris styles identified as Pengging, and the people who did the identifying were for two of the styles, several highly respected Javanese gentlemen; for one of the styles several gentlemen from a much younger group of keris fanciers.

I know what Empu Suparman identified as tangguh Pengging, however taking account of the varying opinions I have encountered in respect of this tangguh, I am just a little reluctant to accept that any particular style can definitely be accepted as Pengging.

A. G. Maisey · 8th April 2010, 12:57 AM

Thanks for those pics Kai Wee.

A gandhik this steeply angled would normally cause us to think Madura, but based upon what I can see in the pics, I'm not prepared to say that it is Madura. Its a peculiar keris in a number of ways, and although my initial impression was that it was not an altered keris, I am now in two minds. It is not a high quality keris, so we cannot really apply strict standards to it:- a lot of quite decent keris were made in areas away from direct center-of-power influence, and by competent people who were not necessarily empus, or even pandai keris. These keris are often a mixture of styles, and this makes a classification difficult, perhaps logically impossible.

I don't think I'm inclined to give a dhapur for this keris.

In fact, it is often better to describe a keris in terms of its ricikan, rather than try to force it into the strict parameters of a dhapur.

BluErf · 8th April 2010, 02:24 PM

Thanks Alan, Ganjawulung for spending time on this keris.

Just to share a bit more on what I heard about the origin of this keris. This was given to a Singaporean who had helped build a new Mosque for a village in Java. The village headman gave this and another keris as a token of appreciation to the person, and he kept them for many years until a couple of years ago when he decided to sell them. Hence, what Alan has said about kerises being made by pandai away from the centres of power could be quite applicable in this case.

ganjawulung · 8th April 2010, 09:27 PM

You're welcome, Kai Wee,
Interesting origin. And after I took a long time on looking at the picture of your blade, personally I like very much the style of your keris' peculiar luks. (a pity, the notches on the wadidang). The blade seems to begin with straight blade, but then ended with artistic luks... Contrary to Megantara, which begins with luks but ends with straight tip... That's my very personal view. It reminds me to another dhapur which has quite similar luks -- Murma Malela... (Once I had, but 'moved' already). Begins as if straight blade, but ended in such peculiar luks. Only, Murma Malela with sekar kacang and nine luks... with one jalen and two lambe gajah and pejetan... Once again, that is my personal view...

Thanks, Kai Wee
GANJAWULUNG

BluErf · 9th April 2010, 03:50 PM

Yes, the way the luks were executed was what caught my attention. It was inspired, in my opinion. The blade is very thick, but not heavy. It's ada-ada can be compared to a Bugis keris', but it is no where as broad. And the next thing that caught my attention was how compact the forging was. Finally, the light wafting scent of incense made itself felt, and that was the last straw that made me buy it.

I hear that the owner never oiled it since he got the keris, and I'm equally amazed to find that the keris had no rust on it...

ganjawulung · 10th April 2010, 02:37 AM

Similar reason did happen to me to buy this peculiar tombak (the picture below is just for comparison, I don't mean to alter this topic to other weapon than keris. Pls David, Rick, I apologize for it...) -- I was caught to the way the empu or tombak maker, whatever, executed the luks. As if straight tombak, then luks, and ends with almost straight tip...
Sarpa nyander? Or sarpa lumaku kind of luks? Whatever... Difficult to express in words.
On certain scent of old blades -- I've tried to make by myself such scent on blades, but never succeed -- also still mysterious, how did they made such long lasting scent such this. Was it oil scent? Or "dupa" scent?

GANJAWULUNG

6th April 2010, 02:14 PM	#1
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Dapur of this Javanese keris? Dear forumnites, Not sure if I have asked the question in this forum before, but can anyone tell me what dapur is this keris? Thanks. Attached Images

6th April 2010, 02:55 PM	#2
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	JARAN GUYANG? Seven luks, with details of gandhik 'lugas' (without sekar kacang), tikel alis, pejetan, sraweyan, ada-ada in the middle of the blade. Then IMHO, it could be a "jaran guyang", but had been modified a little bit. Because a "jaran guyang" should have greneng, but this could have been modified. There is also trace of change on the 'wadidang' side above the 'should be' greneng. It should be no trace of "ron dha nunut"... The naming of the dhapur itself, literally means "horse" (jaran) "taken a bath" (guyang, this word is used especially for animal, not for human)... GANJAWULUNG Last edited by ganjawulung; 6th April 2010 at 03:42 PM.

7th April 2010, 01:01 AM	#4
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Comparison Yes, steep angle ("mboto rubuh") at the gandhik -- and even steeper and visually a little bit shorter (proportion) than usual javanese gandhik, is questionable. Just for comparison, the illustration of dhapur Jaran Guyang (from Mr Haryono Guritno's Keris Jawa book).... Attached Images

7th April 2010, 03:43 PM	#7
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Thanks for looking at the keris, Alan and Ganjawulung. Here're the additional pictures. The series of notches are indeed peculiar. They are just notches cut into the wadidang. It's a bit difficult to take pictures from this angle, but the wadidang does not have any unusual thickness or anything. The gandik's angle is indeed as steep as shown in the picture. Attached Images

8th April 2010, 12:53 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,700	Thanks for that explanation Pak Ganja. As to quoting references, I personally favour this approach, as it gives an indication of where an opinion comes from.You have quoted two notable authorities, both of whom use a set of standards that are often outside the standards that I have learnt to apply. I was taught that proper usage of mboto rubuh and mboto adeg was only in reference to the blumbangan, thus it always interests me to see the way in which usage of terminology can develop. As we so very often see, each group of people elect their leader and then follow that leader's opinions, and those opinions are not necessarily universally accepted. I've always understood mboto rubuh as "fallen brick", that is, like a brick that has already fallen over and is laying on the ground, not "like a falling brick", which would indicate the brick was in the process of falling and is not yet on the ground. This is exactly the way it was explained to me. This is the reason why I find it peculiar to say that a gandhik is "mboto rubuh" when obviously it is not, and cannot be, as it can never lay horizontal and must always have a degree of verticality. But then again, mboto rubuh can also mean something like "big time"---I've heard a party described as "pesta mboto rubuh", and I've heard applause described as "mboto rubuh" which I was told was because it was like bricks falling. So, as I said previously, I can understand the logic of describing a gandhik as "mboto rubuh", but it seems very peculiar to me, and when we then extend that idea to "mboto adeg", it seems even stranger:- like a pile of collapsed bricks raising themselves from the dust? Artistically pictorial language is all well and good, as long as it makes some sense. Similarly, when we classify a keris "mboto adeg", in strict terms, that can only apply to the blumbangan, so a Majapahit keris will always be mboto adeg, because the blumbangan of a Mojo keris will always be mboto adeg. If it is a Mojo keris except for the blumbangan that is not mboto adeg, but, let us say squarish, then we need to classify it between Mojo and Mataram, and we could say it was "Majapahit ke Mataram". We cannot always say a keris is either mboto adeg or mboto rubuh, because a lot of blumbangan are neither. You cannot give a Mataram blumbangan as mboto rubuh, simply because it is not mboto adeg. "Wilah limpa" I don't think I've ever heard, and it does not make sense to me. Limpa = spleen. How do we attach that to a keris, or does it have some unique meaning amongst a particular group of people? EDIT:- I've thought about what I've written above, and I feel that my remarks require some clarification. Anybody reading what I have written could well draw the conclusion that I am fluent in the Javanese language. I am not. Indonesian I can handle comfortably, but Javanese is a language I can usually understand, but am not brave enough to use. Because I am not fluent in Javanese I have found it necessary to make notes of explanations I have been given in Javanese, and then cross-check that explanation or information with others who are fluent in Javanese. I am fortunate in this respect, because I have ready access to half a dozen or so native speakers of Javanese, including my wife.When all else fails, I have a lot of Javanese dictionaries, but I prefer not to use these, as there is a degree of inconsistency in them. Thus, when I make remarks on the meaning or interpretation of Javanese language, those remarks are mere repetition of opinions or explanations provided by other people. In respect of Pengging style keris. Over the years I have seen two distinct and widely different styles of keris identified by respected people as "Pengging". I have seen a third style identified by less knowledgeable people as "Pengging". Thus, over time I have seen three different keris styles identified as Pengging, and the people who did the identifying were for two of the styles, several highly respected Javanese gentlemen; for one of the styles several gentlemen from a much younger group of keris fanciers. I know what Empu Suparman identified as tangguh Pengging, however taking account of the varying opinions I have encountered in respect of this tangguh, I am just a little reluctant to accept that any particular style can definitely be accepted as Pengging. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 8th April 2010 at 02:11 AM.

6th April 2010, 11:26 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,700	Kai Wee, would it be possible for us to see the top of the gonjo? The wadidang seems to have a series of notches cut into it. It looks peculiar. Can you see what has happened there? Is the gandik as steeply angled as it appears to be in the photos?

7th April 2010, 03:04 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,700	Pak Ganja, my query was addressed to Kai Wee:- only he can confirm if that gandik is as steeply angled as it appears to be, because only he has access to the physical keris. I disagree that it is "---visually a little bit shorter (proportion) than usual javanese gandhik---" in my opinion it is completely within the parameters for length for a gandik in a Javanese keris, always dependent upon blumbangan form and the level of skill of the maker. Are you applying the term "mboto rubuh" to the gandik???? I can understand the logic, but it seems a rather unusual usage. Has this usage now become general in some circles? I don't believe I've ever heard it applied to gandik, only to blumbangan, wherein we have a mboto rubuh in , say, a Pengging keris, and mboto adeg in a Majapahit keris.

7th April 2010, 03:48 AM	#6
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	I apologize, Alan. Then, after Kai Wee' response, I will respond to your post. Thanks a lot...

7th April 2010, 05:47 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,025	Madura?

8th April 2010, 12:57 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,700	Thanks for those pics Kai Wee. A gandhik this steeply angled would normally cause us to think Madura, but based upon what I can see in the pics, I'm not prepared to say that it is Madura. Its a peculiar keris in a number of ways, and although my initial impression was that it was not an altered keris, I am now in two minds. It is not a high quality keris, so we cannot really apply strict standards to it:- a lot of quite decent keris were made in areas away from direct center-of-power influence, and by competent people who were not necessarily empus, or even pandai keris. These keris are often a mixture of styles, and this makes a classification difficult, perhaps logically impossible. I don't think I'm inclined to give a dhapur for this keris. In fact, it is often better to describe a keris in terms of its ricikan, rather than try to force it into the strict parameters of a dhapur.

8th April 2010, 02:24 PM	#12
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Thanks Alan, Ganjawulung for spending time on this keris. Just to share a bit more on what I heard about the origin of this keris. This was given to a Singaporean who had helped build a new Mosque for a village in Java. The village headman gave this and another keris as a token of appreciation to the person, and he kept them for many years until a couple of years ago when he decided to sell them. Hence, what Alan has said about kerises being made by pandai away from the centres of power could be quite applicable in this case.

8th April 2010, 09:27 PM	#13
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	You're welcome, Kai Wee, Interesting origin. And after I took a long time on looking at the picture of your blade, personally I like very much the style of your keris' peculiar luks. (a pity, the notches on the wadidang). The blade seems to begin with straight blade, but then ended with artistic luks... Contrary to Megantara, which begins with luks but ends with straight tip... That's my very personal view. It reminds me to another dhapur which has quite similar luks -- Murma Malela... (Once I had, but 'moved' already). Begins as if straight blade, but ended in such peculiar luks. Only, Murma Malela with sekar kacang and nine luks... with one jalen and two lambe gajah and pejetan... Once again, that is my personal view... Thanks, Kai Wee GANJAWULUNG

9th April 2010, 03:50 PM	#14
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Yes, the way the luks were executed was what caught my attention. It was inspired, in my opinion. The blade is very thick, but not heavy. It's ada-ada can be compared to a Bugis keris', but it is no where as broad. And the next thing that caught my attention was how compact the forging was. Finally, the light wafting scent of incense made itself felt, and that was the last straw that made me buy it. I hear that the owner never oiled it since he got the keris, and I'm equally amazed to find that the keris had no rust on it...

10th April 2010, 02:37 AM	#15
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Similar reason did happen to me to buy this peculiar tombak (the picture below is just for comparison, I don't mean to alter this topic to other weapon than keris. Pls David, Rick, I apologize for it...) -- I was caught to the way the empu or tombak maker, whatever, executed the luks. As if straight tombak, then luks, and ends with almost straight tip... Sarpa nyander? Or sarpa lumaku kind of luks? Whatever... Difficult to express in words. On certain scent of old blades -- I've tried to make by myself such scent on blades, but never succeed -- also still mysterious, how did they made such long lasting scent such this. Was it oil scent? Or "dupa" scent? GANJAWULUNG Attached Images