Visayan Sword on Cato's Moro Swords?

Spunjer · 17th January 2005, 03:12 PM

this item ended on ebay last night:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=6504641355
now, this past weekend while being confined at work for 16 hours each day, i was once again leafing thru cato's book for the umpteenth time. on page 23, there's a sword that has a very similar blade on the item provided above. the only difference being the hilt.
well, about a couple months ago, an item similar to cato's book was sold on ebay. here's the link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...762592922&rd=1

to zel, labantayo and everyone else that are very familiar with visayan swords, am i seeing things or has this been discussed before? what do the southern people call this specific sword?

please discuss...

Ian · 17th January 2005, 06:45 PM

Spunjer:

The same dealer as the more recent item you mention had another similar sword recently: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=6503472828

Both this one and the one you referred to are Visayan. They have a very "sparse" or blank form of the Visayan deity hilt, indicating they likely originated from Panay. The guards and scabbards on these two are almost identical also, although the blade profiles are a little different.

The earlier item you mention I believe was discussed here previously. If I recall correctly, it was thought to be a version of the Moro naga-hilted bangkung.

Federico · 17th January 2005, 08:07 PM

Remember the other sword being discussed. Though I'd be more inclined to classify as a shandigan barong with sharpened false edge and Naga hilt? Bangkung I've always associated with more kampilan-esque blades or the "Moro" version of the binagong (now this is if Im remembering the Binagong definition right compared to tenegre and of course if Im even spelling it right) or the lumad tribe kampilan-esque weaponry.

I agree with Ian 100% on the first ebay sword. Modern era (well relatively) tenegre (ok Im cautious with this term cause I mess it up all the time, but just because I dont feel like saying Visayan Bolo I'll use it). The sword on pg 23 in Bob's book is a Naga hilted barong. The picture in the book is a little wierd due to printing.

Spunjer · 17th January 2005, 10:03 PM

hey ian, welcome back! kamusta ang pilipinas (how's philippines)?
as far as that item that was sold a couple months ago, i believe it was agreed to be a variation of barong/bangkung type. after i saw the picture while leafing thru cato's book this past weekend, that's when i remember that ebay item that was discussed a couple months ago.

as for the binangon (don't worry fred, i didn't know there was a difference between that and a tenegre til zel pointed it out to me; heck, i'm ilonggo to boot

), i just can't shake the feeling on how the shape of the blade is strikingly similar to the one on cato's book and the ebay item, save for the shandigan blade.

Federico · 17th January 2005, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

i just can't shake the feeling on how the shape of the blade is strikingly similar to the one on cato's book and the ebay item, save for the shandigan blade.

Its because it has a rounded clip point. Its there, but because it is somewhat rounded that is why it is throwing you off.

As for Bob's book, I can assure you 100% it is a standard barong blade. Play around with picture angles and barongs, and you can sometimes get some interesting results.

Ian · 18th January 2005, 12:10 PM

Mabuti naman salamat po si Spunger.

Philippines was geat, as usual, but only a couple of days. Did see our friend Dan Wilke in Manila, and he made some excellent purchases which I hope he will share with us shortly.

Did not see any shandigan weapons, though there were a couple of nice old kampilan -- Dan snagged a good one.

zelbone · 18th January 2005, 06:44 PM

Spunger,
You'll see alot of similarities with weapons among the various ethnic groups in the Philippines...sometimes they look so similar it's hard to differentiate. Take for instance the blade form which is found throughout the Philippines where the blade has a straight cutting edge and widens from the hilt to the point and the spine curves back down to the edge. You see this in the Sulu bangkung, Ilongo binangon, Cebuano ginunting, T'boli tok, as well as the binakoko of Luzon.

The Moro sword you pointed out is one of those rare Moro oddities. Really, I don't know what to call it, but if I had to I'd call it a rare barong variant. At least the scabbard looks like an older barong form. Whether it has a specific name, that I really don't know. I've only seen one other sword like it and it was in an illustration in the book Sword of Valor. Looking at one of those "Weapons of the Moroland" souvenir plaques it looks similar to the laring or the lahot, although I've never seen actual examples of those weapons. I do offer a couple of possibilities courtesy of our own fellow forumite Vandoo who seems to stash away every kampilan and odd Moro sword around

. The first is a gupad and the second a kambontouli.

zelbone · 18th January 2005, 06:50 PM

Good to have you back, Ian! We're going to have to bug Dan to share some photos of his latest aquisitions in the Philippines.

Hopefully he'll be around Manila when Shelley and I are there in April. Maybe we can turn him from the "Dha Syndicate" and have him join us in the dark side....MUWHAAA-HAA-HA-HA

!!!!

wilked aka Khun Deng · 21st January 2005, 02:01 PM

While I won't turn, I am fascinated and learning quickly. Yes I will be here when you come through. Pics up tonight on the first and best.

zelbone · 22nd January 2005, 07:27 AM

I wouldn't expect you to turn so quickly, Dan

! Look forward to meeting you in Manila. We'll have to talk swords (including dhas) over a few San Miguels and Tabacaleras...although Shelley prefers the Red Horse over the San Miguels.

wilked aka Khun Deng · 22nd January 2005, 03:07 PM

OK Ok quit beating me up. I haven't turned, I prefer to think of it as EXPANDING!
Me and San Miguel are old friends!

LabanTayo · 26th January 2005, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelbone

.although Shelley prefers the Red Horse over the San Miguels.

did somebody say red horse?
red horse and crispy pata, i'm so there.

wilked, if you find any good visayan pieces in manila, please direct us to the right places. i noticed a beauty in the pic of you and ian at the shop in manila.
what part of manila are you staying? we'll be in quiapo, so we'll be close to ermita / malate.

wilked aka Khun Deng · 26th January 2005, 02:33 PM

It was indeed ermita/malate where the dealer was located. Please contact me when you get in I will make time to show you where the exact location is ( for the small cost of showing me how to etch a blade) 0915-743-5504. Dying to pick your mind on Visayan weapons. Have a guy in my unit who is Visayan and he keeps asking me questions I can't answer. First night of Red Horse is on me!
I hear there are a few must visit establishments in that area also

. My wife keeps beating me up to find the "good " markets before she comes to visit in Feb. Any help in that regard would me a big payback!

Ian · 26th January 2005, 03:56 PM

now that you guys have access to my "source." Be kind to the old guy and leave me some pickin's too when I get back to Manila

Have fun guys!

17th January 2005, 03:12 PM	#1
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Visayan Sword on Cato's Moro Swords? this item ended on ebay last night: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=6504641355 now, this past weekend while being confined at work for 16 hours each day, i was once again leafing thru cato's book for the umpteenth time. on page 23, there's a sword that has a very similar blade on the item provided above. the only difference being the hilt. well, about a couple months ago, an item similar to cato's book was sold on ebay. here's the link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...762592922&rd=1 to zel, labantayo and everyone else that are very familiar with visayan swords, am i seeing things or has this been discussed before? what do the southern people call this specific sword? please discuss...

17th January 2005, 06:45 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,029	Visayan tenegre Spunjer: The same dealer as the more recent item you mention had another similar sword recently: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=6503472828 Both this one and the one you referred to are Visayan. They have a very "sparse" or blank form of the Visayan deity hilt, indicating they likely originated from Panay. The guards and scabbards on these two are almost identical also, although the blade profiles are a little different. The earlier item you mention I believe was discussed here previously. If I recall correctly, it was thought to be a version of the Moro naga-hilted bangkung.

18th January 2005, 06:44 PM	#7
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	Spunger, You'll see alot of similarities with weapons among the various ethnic groups in the Philippines...sometimes they look so similar it's hard to differentiate. Take for instance the blade form which is found throughout the Philippines where the blade has a straight cutting edge and widens from the hilt to the point and the spine curves back down to the edge. You see this in the Sulu bangkung, Ilongo binangon, Cebuano ginunting, T'boli tok, as well as the binakoko of Luzon. The Moro sword you pointed out is one of those rare Moro oddities. Really, I don't know what to call it, but if I had to I'd call it a rare barong variant. At least the scabbard looks like an older barong form. Whether it has a specific name, that I really don't know. I've only seen one other sword like it and it was in an illustration in the book Sword of Valor. Looking at one of those "Weapons of the Moroland" souvenir plaques it looks similar to the laring or the lahot, although I've never seen actual examples of those weapons. I do offer a couple of possibilities courtesy of our own fellow forumite Vandoo who seems to stash away every kampilan and odd Moro sword around . The first is a gupad and the second a kambontouli. Attached Images

21st January 2005, 02:01 PM	#9
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Fascinated While I won't turn, I am fascinated and learning quickly. Yes I will be here when you come through. Pics up tonight on the first and best.

22nd January 2005, 03:07 PM	#11
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Turned? OK Ok quit beating me up. I haven't turned, I prefer to think of it as EXPANDING! Me and San Miguel are old friends!

17th January 2005, 08:07 PM	#3
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Remember the other sword being discussed. Though I'd be more inclined to classify as a shandigan barong with sharpened false edge and Naga hilt? Bangkung I've always associated with more kampilan-esque blades or the "Moro" version of the binagong (now this is if Im remembering the Binagong definition right compared to tenegre and of course if Im even spelling it right) or the lumad tribe kampilan-esque weaponry. I agree with Ian 100% on the first ebay sword. Modern era (well relatively) tenegre (ok Im cautious with this term cause I mess it up all the time, but just because I dont feel like saying Visayan Bolo I'll use it). The sword on pg 23 in Bob's book is a Naga hilted barong. The picture in the book is a little wierd due to printing.

17th January 2005, 10:03 PM	#4
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	hey ian, welcome back! kamusta ang pilipinas (how's philippines)? as far as that item that was sold a couple months ago, i believe it was agreed to be a variation of barong/bangkung type. after i saw the picture while leafing thru cato's book this past weekend, that's when i remember that ebay item that was discussed a couple months ago. as for the binangon (don't worry fred, i didn't know there was a difference between that and a tenegre til zel pointed it out to me; heck, i'm ilonggo to boot ), i just can't shake the feeling on how the shape of the blade is strikingly similar to the one on cato's book and the ebay item, save for the shandigan blade.

18th January 2005, 12:10 PM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,029	Mabuti naman salamat po si Spunger. Philippines was geat, as usual, but only a couple of days. Did see our friend Dan Wilke in Manila, and he made some excellent purchases which I hope he will share with us shortly. Did not see any shandigan weapons, though there were a couple of nice old kampilan -- Dan snagged a good one.

18th January 2005, 06:50 PM	#8
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	Good to have you back, Ian! We're going to have to bug Dan to share some photos of his latest aquisitions in the Philippines. Hopefully he'll be around Manila when Shelley and I are there in April. Maybe we can turn him from the "Dha Syndicate" and have him join us in the dark side....MUWHAAA-HAA-HA-HA !!!!

22nd January 2005, 07:27 AM	#10
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	I wouldn't expect you to turn so quickly, Dan ! Look forward to meeting you in Manila. We'll have to talk swords (including dhas) over a few San Miguels and Tabacaleras...although Shelley prefers the Red Horse over the San Miguels.

26th January 2005, 02:33 PM	#13
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Red Horse on me! It was indeed ermita/malate where the dealer was located. Please contact me when you get in I will make time to show you where the exact location is ( for the small cost of showing me how to etch a blade) 0915-743-5504. Dying to pick your mind on Visayan weapons. Have a guy in my unit who is Visayan and he keeps asking me questions I can't answer. First night of Red Horse is on me! I hear there are a few must visit establishments in that area also . My wife keeps beating me up to find the "good " markets before she comes to visit in Feb. Any help in that regard would me a big payback!

26th January 2005, 03:56 PM	#14
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,029	Don't be pushing the prices up ... now that you guys have access to my "source." Be kind to the old guy and leave me some pickin's too when I get back to Manila Have fun guys!