Another mystery sword

Bill M · 11th November 2006, 08:07 PM

This is 21" from tip of scabbard to tip of horn. Scabbard and hilt seem well made. Blade is a bit more rough. Some markings on the blade. Anyone have any ideas about what this could be?

Rick · 11th November 2006, 09:00 PM

With the carving and dropped point blade it looks like it might be Thai.

Tim Simmons · 11th November 2006, 09:21 PM

Have we not seen these blade marks before? The way the scabbard works is very similar to this central Asian knife, so is the blade when you think about it. The carving is not immediately East Asian? The curved form might be derived from those curved goat horn hilted knives from Persia and central Asia.

Tim Simmons · 11th November 2006, 09:39 PM

I think the marks were on a Kukri spiral post or something like that.

Bill M · 11th November 2006, 09:39 PM

Could it be some kind of dha?

Why would they put so much effort into the hilt and scabbard and so little into the blade? Guess they wore it only for show?

Henk · 12th November 2006, 09:41 AM

Bill, I think you have to look at the direction of Sumatra or Mentawai. In Van Zonneveld you find these hilt form on "Lopah Petawaran" and on "Palitai" from the Mentawai. The steel from the blades was imported from Sumatra because forging was unknown on Mentawai.

Bill M · 12th November 2006, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

Bill, I think you have to look at the direction of Sumatra or Mentawai. In Van Zonneveld you find these hilt form on "Lopah Petawaran" and on "Palitai" from the Mentawai. The steel from the blades was imported from Sumatra because forging was unknown on Mentawai.

Henk,

I have a Mentawai, but it is the kind with the curled "tail." I have never seen this kind of carving on a Mentawai handle. The blade on the Mentawai is poor quality also.

But I am leaning toward it being Thai.

Guess I will file it under "Oddities." I have a few of these!

eftihis · 12th November 2006, 02:11 PM

Sorry for the off topic question, but Bill, with what camera you made these fasntastic close up photos? I am trying to find a camera with good macro performance, yours is great!

Ian · 12th November 2006, 02:12 PM

Bill:

While there are some features resembling Thai/Burmese knives (dha/daab), I think this knife is not from mainland SE Asia, nor other areas of SE Asia, but rather from further west and north (although I'm not sure quite from where).

The multifullered blade reminds me more of Tibet/China than Burma/Thailand. The marks stamped on the blade are unknown to me, but they are not Burmese, Thai, or from elsewhere in SE Asia AFAIK.

The downcurved handle is interesting and seems well carved and constructed. The carving on the hilt is rather generic, with vines and flowers that could be Burmese, although I get more of a Chinese feeling, especially with the flowers.

While some Burmese knives have a similar handle profile and carved motifs, that's where the similarity ends. IMO the ferrule is not Burmese, or at least it does not look like anything Burmese or Thai that I have seen. Adjacent to the blade there appears to be a multifaceted disk, then a slightly widening ferrule that carries through the same multifaceted style. It is otherwise undecorated. I would expect to see a cylindrical or bell shaped ferrule on Burmese or Thai work, with at least some scoll work or other design decorating it.

Lastly, the scabbard. If it originally comes with this knife then it too is not Burmese or Thai, who did not use leather over wood construction. The treatment of the leather in almost a "shagreen" manner suggests Chinese or Afghan/Pakistan/etc. work.

Putting this together, I think we need to be looking at China/Central or Southern Asia, or thereabouts. The key may lie in the stampings on the blade, which seem to have a vaguely Cyrillic look to some of them. Others will need to sort that out better for you.

An interesting knife Bill, and one that will continue to draw discussion until someone comes up with a more definitive answer for you. Perhaps Philip has some thoughts. Thanks for showing it.

Ian.

Bill M · 12th November 2006, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eftihis

Sorry for the off topic question, but Bill, with what camera you made these fasntastic close up photos? I am trying to find a camera with good macro performance, yours is great!

I am going to reply in the sticky above on picture resizing so we don't get sidetracked here.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ed=1#post36464

Bill M · 12th November 2006, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Bill:

While there are some features resembling Thai/Burmese knives (dha/daab), I think this knife is not from mainland SE Asia, nor other areas of SE Asia, but rather from further west and north (although I'm not sure quite from where).

The multifullered blade reminds me more of Tibet/China than Burma/Thailand. The marks stamped on the blade are unknown to me, but they are not Burmese, Thai, or from elsewhere in SE Asia AFAIK.

The downcurved handle is interesting and seems well carved and constructed. The carving on the hilt is rather generic, with vines and flowers that could be Burmese, although I get more of a Chinese feeling, especially with the flowers.

While some Burmese knives have a similar handle profile and carved motifs, that's where the similarity ends. IMO the ferrule is not Burmese, or at least it does not look like anything Burmese or Thai that I have seen. Adjacent to the blade there appears to be a multifaceted disk, then a slightly widening ferrule that carries through the same multifaceted style. It is otherwise undecorated. I would expect to see a cylindrical or bell shaped ferrule on Burmese or Thai work, with at least some scoll work or other design decorating it.

Lastly, the scabbard. If it originally comes with this knife then it too is not Burmese or Thai, who did not use leather over wood construction. The treatment of the leather in almost a "shagreen" manner suggests Chinese or Afghan/Pakistan/etc. work.

Putting this together, I think we need to be looking at China/Central or Southern Asia, or thereabouts. The key may lie in the stampings on the blade, which seem to have a vaguely Cyrillic look to some of them. Others will need to sort that out better for you.

An interesting knife Bill, and one that will continue to draw discussion until someone comes up with a more definitive answer for you. Perhaps Philip has some thoughts. Thanks for showing it.

Ian.

Thanks again Ian,

Will look forward to more input. I will just file it under "Oddities" and not dha.

Bill

CharlesS · 13th November 2006, 12:52 PM

Blade shape, fullering(though poorly executed) and ferrule say "dha" to me, and the carved hilt is rather odd looking at first glance, but were it ivory, I think most of us would be jumping at a "dha" identity.

The leather covered scabbard is something of a stretch, rather odd.

I think this a contemporary dha knife made as an "eye catcher". The poor quality of the blade, hilt carving and scabbard suggest very little age.

Interesting nonetheless.

Bill M · 13th November 2006, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Blade shape, fullering(though poorly executed) and ferrule say "dha" to me, and the carved hilt is rather odd looking at first glance, but were it ivory, I think most of us would be jumping at a "dha" identity.

The leather covered scabbard is something of a stretch, rather odd.

I think this a contemporary dha knife made as an "eye catcher". The poor quality of the blade, hilt carving and scabbard suggest very little age.

Interesting nonetheless.

Hi Charles,

This makes sense to me. The carving and the scabbard covering -- both suggest a bit of effort. Does not seem to have any great age. Very little wear.

The size is impressive at about 21" from scabbard tip, straight across to handle tip.

I bought it for the handle.

Anyone have an idea about the markings??

11th November 2006, 08:07 PM	#1
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Another mystery sword This is 21" from tip of scabbard to tip of horn. Scabbard and hilt seem well made. Blade is a bit more rough. Some markings on the blade. Anyone have any ideas about what this could be? Attached Images

11th November 2006, 09:21 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Have we not seen these blade marks before? The way the scabbard works is very similar to this central Asian knife, so is the blade when you think about it. The carving is not immediately East Asian? The curved form might be derived from those curved goat horn hilted knives from Persia and central Asia. Attached Images

12th November 2006, 02:11 PM	#8
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 500	Off topic! Sorry for the off topic question, but Bill, with what camera you made these fasntastic close up photos? I am trying to find a camera with good macro performance, yours is great!

12th November 2006, 02:12 PM	#9
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,031	Interesting piece Bill ... Bill: While there are some features resembling Thai/Burmese knives (dha/daab), I think this knife is not from mainland SE Asia, nor other areas of SE Asia, but rather from further west and north (although I'm not sure quite from where). The multifullered blade reminds me more of Tibet/China than Burma/Thailand. The marks stamped on the blade are unknown to me, but they are not Burmese, Thai, or from elsewhere in SE Asia AFAIK. The downcurved handle is interesting and seems well carved and constructed. The carving on the hilt is rather generic, with vines and flowers that could be Burmese, although I get more of a Chinese feeling, especially with the flowers. While some Burmese knives have a similar handle profile and carved motifs, that's where the similarity ends. IMO the ferrule is not Burmese, or at least it does not look like anything Burmese or Thai that I have seen. Adjacent to the blade there appears to be a multifaceted disk, then a slightly widening ferrule that carries through the same multifaceted style. It is otherwise undecorated. I would expect to see a cylindrical or bell shaped ferrule on Burmese or Thai work, with at least some scoll work or other design decorating it. Lastly, the scabbard. If it originally comes with this knife then it too is not Burmese or Thai, who did not use leather over wood construction. The treatment of the leather in almost a "shagreen" manner suggests Chinese or Afghan/Pakistan/etc. work. Putting this together, I think we need to be looking at China/Central or Southern Asia, or thereabouts. The key may lie in the stampings on the blade, which seem to have a vaguely Cyrillic look to some of them. Others will need to sort that out better for you. An interesting knife Bill, and one that will continue to draw discussion until someone comes up with a more definitive answer for you. Perhaps Philip has some thoughts. Thanks for showing it. Ian.

11th November 2006, 09:00 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	With the carving and dropped point blade it looks like it might be Thai.

11th November 2006, 09:39 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	I think the marks were on a Kukri spiral post or something like that.

12th November 2006, 09:41 AM	#6
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Bill, I think you have to look at the direction of Sumatra or Mentawai. In Van Zonneveld you find these hilt form on "Lopah Petawaran" and on "Palitai" from the Mentawai. The steel from the blades was imported from Sumatra because forging was unknown on Mentawai.

13th November 2006, 12:52 PM	#12
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,855	Blade shape, fullering(though poorly executed) and ferrule say "dha" to me, and the carved hilt is rather odd looking at first glance, but were it ivory, I think most of us would be jumping at a "dha" identity. The leather covered scabbard is something of a stretch, rather odd. I think this a contemporary dha knife made as an "eye catcher". The poor quality of the blade, hilt carving and scabbard suggest very little age. Interesting nonetheless.