Do you think this is a genuine 1600 AD Knight's sword??

katana · 19th June 2006, 11:56 AM

Recently finished......strange that the appraised value was $20000 and the seller was prepared to sell for less than a tenth of that figure......I hear alarm bells ringing...(in my head)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

What do you think..........

S.Al-Anizi · 19th June 2006, 12:13 PM

I honestly believe that this is a knightly sword, really nice sword too. Would love to see more of those on ebay instead of those damn chinese katanas. As for the selling price, its a shame, if I had the money, which I certainly dont, I would buy it at double the price set by the seller. Really beautiful sword.

Michael Blalock · 19th June 2006, 12:32 PM

This is a very controversial seller, aka EFTIS. He has had a number of miraculous medieval and viking swords for sale, all reported to have been excavated. By the way, here is another remarkable Viking Sword:

Ebay 7422232122

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

katana · 19th June 2006, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Blalock

This is a very controversial seller, aka EFTIS. He has had a number of miraculous medieval and viking swords for sale, all reported to have been excavated. By the way, here is another remarkable Viking Sword:

Ebay 7422232122

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

Vikings on Camels...

I thought camels are know as 'ships of the desert'.......must have mis-heard.....it obviously must be 'longships of the desert'........

S.Al-Anizi · 19th June 2006, 12:43 PM

However, he did have some credible stuff to sell:

http://cgi.ebay.com/EFTIS-UNIQUE-INL...QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/EFTIS-MASTERPIEC...QQcmdZViewItem

katana · 19th June 2006, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.Al-Anizi

However, he did have some credible stuff to sell:

http://cgi.ebay.com/EFTIS-UNIQUE-INL...QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/EFTIS-MASTERPIEC...QQcmdZViewItem

Is it me ? but the inlay on both swords looks very new, and seems to follow the contours of the pitted areas........later additions?
I'm still laughing about the Viking Takouba......

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

Valjhun · 19th June 2006, 01:07 PM

I will not comment that seller.

However thatone looks verry verry well. Well I guest that it was real, but I think it still overpriced. That is not a 10.000$ crusader era sword, but rather a 17th century piece, slightly bigger than thoose landknechts schwerte. Nice piece, however certainly not a bargain missing its quillons.

Another thing, the crazy appraisals from that seller are taken out from Christie's auction catalogues for the year 2020...

The viking variant of the tokuba is just gorgeus! The essential piece for desert boardings.

look at the price

, the rightfull reserve hasn't been met thou

S.Al-Anizi · 19th June 2006, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Is it me ? but the inlay on both swords looks very new, and seems to follow the contours of the pitted areas........later additions?
I'm still laughing about the Viking Takouba......

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

Katana, you do realise that the inlay is gold, and gold doesnt react with time.

katana · 19th June 2006, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.Al-Anizi

Katana, you do realise that the inlay is gold, and gold doesnt react with time.

The Crusader sword is described as having copper inlay and the Viking sword has having gold or copper inlay. Seeing that the inlays look very similar in method (not design), colour etc I assumed they were both copper.

It does strike me as odd that these two swords seperated by time and geographical factors, have similarly executed inlays, being sold by the same seller in a short space of time...

Jeff Pringle · 19th June 2006, 02:26 PM

Quote:

However, he did have some credible stuff to sell:

http://cgi.ebay.com/EFTIS-UNIQUE-IN...QcmdZ ViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/EFTIS-MASTERPIE...Qcmd ZViewItem

From the perspective of someone who has studied Viking artifacts pretty closely over the last few years, I'd say 'credible' is a very generous term.

And he's putting a new one up every couple months, even if the stuff was more convincing, that would raise my eyebrow.

Bill M · 19th June 2006, 02:33 PM

"Very controversial seller!"

Caveat Emptor

Marc · 19th June 2006, 03:17 PM

We've been many times advised by the moderators to refrain to discuss the dealers and concentrate in the pieces. So, I'll try to do exactly that... but Caveat Emptor, indeed.

This is an European late 17th- early 18th c. sword blade, of the sometimes called "military" type, in contrast with the more slender "civil" types. Probably mounted originally in a Waloon or basket-type hilt, which makes one wonder what the heck does that kind of pommel there. Anyway, the inscription on the blade is the mar of the Giacomo (Gio) Knegt (or Kneght, or even Knetch), an Italian (at least his name seems to hint so) working in the German city of Solingen in that period. He usually signed, indeed, GIO KNEGT / IN SOLINGEN or GIO KNEGT / EN ALEMANIA, with various spelling variations. Many of his blades were aimed to the Spanish market, hence the frequent Spanish version ("EN ALEMANIA" meaning "In Germany") of his signature. I've seen many of his blades mounted in Spanish military M1728-type (what you call "Bilbo"-type) cavalry swords, covering the period mentioned.
All in all, not a bad exemplar by itself. This, of course, completely ignoring the seller's comments about its possible origin.

On a lighter note, well, the market is free, surely enough, but if someone would really be consistently ready to buy these blades for this kind of money, I know quite a few people that wouldn't hesitate a second in dismantling a good part of their collections to supply exemplars...

katana · 19th June 2006, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc

I know quite a few people that wouldn't hesitate a second in dismantling a good part of their collections to supply exemplars...

exemplars............dont you mean Templars

Thanks Marc, I found your post very informative.

Valjhun · 19th June 2006, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.Al-Anizi

Katana, you do realise that the inlay is gold, and gold doesnt react with time.

Man, I do not knwo what do you see, but to me it looks as some picasso wicca wannabe has painted thoose symbols recently. That is not gold inlaid. With that ammount of rust, the original gold inlad would be history by now.

Mark, thank you verry much for your verry interesting post!

Lew · 19th June 2006, 05:48 PM

This sword blade is circa 1690-1700 it has very similar marks to the blade on my kaskara? Hey maybe Cromwell carried my kaskara into battle

I'm rich lol

Lew

katana · 19th June 2006, 06:32 PM

Lew, thats a very nice Kaskara.....

Michael Blalock · 19th June 2006, 06:36 PM

Not to keep harping on the implausibility of the blade being as old as described, but could a ferrous sword have actually been at the bottom of the Danube river for hundreds of years as described and not rust away?

katana · 19th June 2006, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Blalock

but could a ferrous sword have actually been at the bottom of the Danube river for hundreds of years as described and not rust away?

It is possible that sediments deposited on the river's bottom, can create a soft layer devoid of oxygen and high in nitrates. If ferrous metal sunk into this layer and was covered up quickly as it sank: it would be possible that the oxidation of the blade would be much slower.

It seems unlikely to be the case with the sword in question though

Tim Simmons · 19th June 2006, 07:22 PM

It is all in the tang. Take a close look. It seems to have missed any ageing what so ever.

Tim Simmons · 19th June 2006, 08:55 PM

There is indeed the likelihood that this is a complete fabrication. looking at the tang again, even if it had undergone professional conservation it is as fresh as yesterday. Look at the tang on my tombak, most certainly not 16th century

and has been in fruit acid for a week.

ariel · 19th June 2006, 09:13 PM

I think the blade is genuine ; the pommel is a big question mark; but the tang is new. A true "fusion" sword

RomaRana · 19th June 2006, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Blalock

Not to keep harping on the implausibility of the blade being as old as described, but could a ferrous sword have actually been at the bottom of the Danube river for hundreds of years as described and not rust away?

Not that the sword in question, but yes they are.

Medieval swords are frequently found in rivers. The silt deposits protect them and form an airtight barrier but they look nothing like that sword.

Finds have been made in (just a few of the many):
Neuenburg lake- Oakeshott page 74 -Records Of the Medieval Sword
the River Aa- Oakeshott records page 48
River Thames - Oakeshott records 26 and The Archeology of Weapons 136

River swords have a hard brown patina and are often very corroded.

katana · 19th June 2006, 09:43 PM

Just a possibillity...

I would assume that the handle would have been leather bound wood...on that assumption ..the handle would have been bonded to the tang using some form of resin. If this is the case, after the wood had rotted away.. it would expose the 'resin covered' tang ...which could have protected it from rusting.
I'm not saying that this is true for the sword which started the thread... but could it be possible for other 'drowned' swords???

katana · 19th June 2006, 09:53 PM

I've only just noticed this on the listing...

'Length of Pommel: 5.5 cm. The Sword is in excellent excavated condition with minimal pitting. The crossbar is missing but the original pommel is present.'

If the pommel is original and still fixed to the tang, the 'crossbar' would be captive between the pommel and blade, so should be present....or am I missing something....

Valjhun · 19th June 2006, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

The Sword is in excellent excavated condition.

What's that supposed to mean? A piece of iron/steel undergroun for 400 years cannot be in excellent condition in any way....

Mark · 20th June 2006, 03:31 AM

I think enough has been said about this sword, and I see the thread drifting in an unproductive direction.

If you have information or insight that might help date the blade, please do share this with the forum, but there is no good purpose to speculation, and even less to mockery.

Thank you.

Jeff D · 20th June 2006, 05:02 AM

Hi All,

My understanding is that GIO KNEGT stands for Johann Knecht a Solingen maker from the early to mid 18th century?

Hope this helps.
Jeff

Marc · 20th June 2006, 09:18 AM

Jeff, yes, that's him (see my post above, Johann <-> Giovanni /Gio, same name, different versions).

Just some quick clarifications:

Yes, words found underwater can be quite preserved from corrosion if the right conditions are met. For swords, specifically, there's, for example, the archaeological underwater finds of the Lake Neuchâtel in Switzerland that gave name to the whole La Tène period (450-50 BC), dated around the first part of it.

The state of preservation of this blade is consistent with the given date (late 17th- early 18th c.) for such an object preserved indoors under not too harsh conditions.

Goes without saying that this blade is, of course, NOT in excavated condition.

The pommel, although presumably genuine (and probably datable a bit earlier, also), is hardly belivable as original with this blade. The configuration of the tang just does not coincide with the use of the type of hilt that goes with this kind of pommel.

katana · 20th June 2006, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Bowditch

I think enough has been said about this sword, and I see the thread drifting in an unproductive direction.

If you have information or insight that might help date the blade, please do share this with the forum, but there is no good purpose to speculation, and even less to mockery.

Thank you.

Point taken Mark.
However, with the increasing number of fraudulent and colourful listings put on eBay, discussions like this can be highly informative.
If the comments and ideas help members in spotting these listings and prevent mistakes being made then I feel its serving a purpose.

Lee · 20th June 2006, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

However, with the increasing number of fraudulent and colourful listings put on eBay, discussions like this can be highly informative. If the comments and ideas help members in spotting these listings and prevent mistakes being made then I feel its serving a purpose.

The trick, of course, is avoiding implied accusations against sellers who have been so identified. I suspect lack of specialized expertise compounded with wishful thinking is the most common cause of many of the 'colourful' descriptions. However, outright fraud is also entirely too prevalent these days.

I have dabbled in collecting European medieval swords for the last two decades. I have been fortunate to acquire a few genuine ones and have also been taken in by some fakes. I have had the opportunity to handle many more and to converse with collectors far more experienced than myself.

Anyone contemplating collecting European medieval swords these days needs to realize the perils. It is my observation and opinion that the majority of swords of this style in the marketplace today are younger than I am. I am also of the opinion that the fakes are getting more sophisticated and also that they are creeping into and contaminating the best venues. If you aspire to collect these things, see as many genuine examples as possible, never spend significant money without a 'hands-on' examination and, if you have the least suspicion you are in over your head, seek independent expert advice before commiting to a purchase.

19th June 2006, 11:56 AM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Do you think this is a genuine 1600 AD Knight's sword?? Recently finished......strange that the appraised value was $20000 and the seller was prepared to sell for less than a tenth of that figure......I hear alarm bells ringing...(in my head) http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1 What do you think..........

19th June 2006, 05:48 PM	#15
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	This sword blade is circa 1690-1700 it has very similar marks to the blade on my kaskara? Hey maybe Cromwell carried my kaskara into battle I'm rich lol Lew Attached Images Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 19th June 2006 at 05:59 PM.

19th June 2006, 08:55 PM	#20
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	There is indeed the likelihood that this is a complete fabrication. looking at the tang again, even if it had undergone professional conservation it is as fresh as yesterday. Look at the tang on my tombak, most certainly not 16th century and has been in fruit acid for a week. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 19th June 2006 at 09:15 PM.

19th June 2006, 12:13 PM	#2
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	I honestly believe that this is a knightly sword, really nice sword too. Would love to see more of those on ebay instead of those damn chinese katanas. As for the selling price, its a shame, if I had the money, which I certainly dont, I would buy it at double the price set by the seller. Really beautiful sword.

19th June 2006, 12:32 PM	#3
Michael Blalock Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: dc Posts: 271	This is a very controversial seller, aka EFTIS. He has had a number of miraculous medieval and viking swords for sale, all reported to have been excavated. By the way, here is another remarkable Viking Sword: Ebay 7422232122 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

19th June 2006, 12:43 PM	#5
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	However, he did have some credible stuff to sell: http://cgi.ebay.com/EFTIS-UNIQUE-INL...QQcmdZViewItem http://cgi.ebay.com/EFTIS-MASTERPIEC...QQcmdZViewItem

19th June 2006, 01:07 PM	#7
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	I will not comment that seller. However thatone looks verry verry well. Well I guest that it was real, but I think it still overpriced. That is not a 10.000$ crusader era sword, but rather a 17th century piece, slightly bigger than thoose landknechts schwerte. Nice piece, however certainly not a bargain missing its quillons. Another thing, the crazy appraisals from that seller are taken out from Christie's auction catalogues for the year 2020... The viking variant of the tokuba is just gorgeus! The essential piece for desert boardings. look at the price , the rightfull reserve hasn't been met thou

19th June 2006, 02:33 PM	#11
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	"Very controversial seller!" Caveat Emptor

19th June 2006, 03:17 PM	#12
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	We've been many times advised by the moderators to refrain to discuss the dealers and concentrate in the pieces. So, I'll try to do exactly that... but Caveat Emptor, indeed. This is an European late 17th- early 18th c. sword blade, of the sometimes called "military" type, in contrast with the more slender "civil" types. Probably mounted originally in a Waloon or basket-type hilt, which makes one wonder what the heck does that kind of pommel there. Anyway, the inscription on the blade is the mar of the Giacomo (Gio) Knegt (or Kneght, or even Knetch), an Italian (at least his name seems to hint so) working in the German city of Solingen in that period. He usually signed, indeed, GIO KNEGT / IN SOLINGEN or GIO KNEGT / EN ALEMANIA, with various spelling variations. Many of his blades were aimed to the Spanish market, hence the frequent Spanish version ("EN ALEMANIA" meaning "In Germany") of his signature. I've seen many of his blades mounted in Spanish military M1728-type (what you call "Bilbo"-type) cavalry swords, covering the period mentioned. All in all, not a bad exemplar by itself. This, of course, completely ignoring the seller's comments about its possible origin. On a lighter note, well, the market is free, surely enough, but if someone would really be consistently ready to buy these blades for this kind of money, I know quite a few people that wouldn't hesitate a second in dismantling a good part of their collections to supply exemplars...

19th June 2006, 06:32 PM	#16
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Lew, thats a very nice Kaskara.....

19th June 2006, 06:36 PM	#17
Michael Blalock Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: dc Posts: 271	Not to keep harping on the implausibility of the blade being as old as described, but could a ferrous sword have actually been at the bottom of the Danube river for hundreds of years as described and not rust away?

19th June 2006, 07:22 PM	#19
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	It is all in the tang. Take a close look. It seems to have missed any ageing what so ever.

19th June 2006, 09:13 PM	#21
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I think the blade is genuine ; the pommel is a big question mark; but the tang is new. A true "fusion" sword

19th June 2006, 09:43 PM	#23
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Just a possibillity... I would assume that the handle would have been leather bound wood...on that assumption ..the handle would have been bonded to the tang using some form of resin. If this is the case, after the wood had rotted away.. it would expose the 'resin covered' tang ...which could have protected it from rusting. I'm not saying that this is true for the sword which started the thread... but could it be possible for other 'drowned' swords???

19th June 2006, 09:53 PM	#24
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	I've only just noticed this on the listing... 'Length of Pommel: 5.5 cm. The Sword is in excellent excavated condition with minimal pitting. The crossbar is missing but the original pommel is present.' If the pommel is original and still fixed to the tang, the 'crossbar' would be captive between the pommel and blade, so should be present....or am I missing something....

20th June 2006, 03:31 AM	#26
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	I think enough has been said about this sword, and I see the thread drifting in an unproductive direction. If you have information or insight that might help date the blade, please do share this with the forum, but there is no good purpose to speculation, and even less to mockery. Thank you.

20th June 2006, 05:02 AM	#27
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi All, My understanding is that GIO KNEGT stands for Johann Knecht a Solingen maker from the early to mid 18th century? Hope this helps. Jeff

20th June 2006, 09:18 AM	#28
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Jeff, yes, that's him (see my post above, Johann <-> Giovanni /Gio, same name, different versions). Just some quick clarifications: Yes, words found underwater can be quite preserved from corrosion if the right conditions are met. For swords, specifically, there's, for example, the archaeological underwater finds of the Lake Neuchâtel in Switzerland that gave name to the whole La Tène period (450-50 BC), dated around the first part of it. The state of preservation of this blade is consistent with the given date (late 17th- early 18th c.) for such an object preserved indoors under not too harsh conditions. Goes without saying that this blade is, of course, NOT in excavated condition. The pommel, although presumably genuine (and probably datable a bit earlier, also), is hardly belivable as original with this blade. The configuration of the tang just does not coincide with the use of the type of hilt that goes with this kind of pommel.