51 luk keris with Naga

asomotif · 11th July 2008, 10:52 AM

I bought this 51 luk keris with a brass ? naga.

It comes from a collection that was built up around 30 years ago.
I bought it together with a keris holder and the seller only wanted to sell it as a set.

Any ideas on the age of this keris ? is it an original item ?
Any info or comments are welcome.

asomotif · 11th July 2008, 10:55 AM

more pics / also of the keris holder tha came with it.

VVV · 11th July 2008, 12:02 PM

Nice kerisholder

Michael

sjors · 11th July 2008, 12:16 PM

I realy like the kerisholder and its a nice keris but I wonder (so correct me if I'm wrong): is it really 51 luk or is it "reshaped" (so did someone "helped" it to become a 51 luk keris?)...

sjors · 11th July 2008, 02:16 PM

Sorry: did someone help it to "become" a 51 luk keris?...

David · 11th July 2008, 02:55 PM

Yeah, i like the keris holder as well. The keris itself looks like it has been seriously reshaped. You can see that the grain of the metal does not go with the curves of the blade. The naga was probably added at the same time. Not a very skilled job. Seeing this done to a keris saddens me.

Henk · 11th July 2008, 04:29 PM

I agree with David on the keris.
The naga is a later addition. Made for tourist purposes. The luk are also made with the same purpose. The blade is that of an older keris. The luk are not forged but filed. The job is probably done at the same time. A shame to abuse an old keris in this way.

Nice kerisholder. But also not an old one. As far as I can see on the picture made of very light wood. At the base is a dry crack. Actually a mark for these type of kerisholders.

sjors · 11th July 2008, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Made for tourist purposes

In my opinion that's nowadays a problem in Indonesia: wrecking genuine kerisses for tourist who don't care anyway!

David · 11th July 2008, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

Nice kerisholder. But also not an old one. As far as I can see on the picture made of very light wood. At the base is a dry crack. Actually a mark for these type of kerisholders.

Agreed Henk, but for my purposes i don't really mind the more modern holders as long as they are well carved and attractive. Actual antique ones, while made of heavier, denser woods, are very expensive. The shipping alone on those weighty pieces can break your bank...and i'd rather have that money to spend on the keris themselves.

asomotif · 11th July 2008, 09:24 PM

Yes, somebody did a serious file job on this one.

But is had no idea if this was purely for tourists, obviously it was.

The keris holder is indeed light wood. But is is very well made IMHO.
It was the keris holder I was after, the keris just came with it.

Henk · 11th July 2008, 10:03 PM

David and Asomotif.

Nothing wrong with the kerisholder accept it isn't an old one. For the same reason David I also have a "new" one in my room.

A. G. Maisey · 11th July 2008, 10:43 PM

Based upon what I can see in the photographs, this is not an old keris that has been re-shaped, but a recent creation of perhaps the 1970's.

The blade shows no evidence of a core, nor of folding. This material gives every appearance of being plain wrought iron, possibly a piece of carriage strapping, or even wheel rim.

The gonjo has a surface pattern that could possibly indicate folded material, and if this is so, it may be an old gonjo that has been recycled, however, the depth , smoothness and evenness of the surface pattern on the gonjo could indicate that the pattern has been created by a combination of mechanical and chemical means. Another possibility is that it has been made from the same wrought iron as the rest of the blade and the wrought iron layering has been deeply etched in order to reveal it. Physical examination would easily reveal the true nature of this gonjo, but it is difficult from a photograph.

Not a good keris, but interesting in that it shows clearly how far current era keris production has come in a relatively short space of time.

asomotif · 12th July 2008, 12:32 AM

Thank you all for the interesting background info and opinions

Quote:

perhaps the 1970's.

This would be in line with the period that it was collected by the former owner.

To me the Gonjo / Ganja appears to be an old one. (considering the insight these comments have given me

)

Quote:

interesting in that it shows clearly how far current era keris production has come in a relatively short space of time.

That remark must be in a positive way I assume.
Weird stuff like this in no longer made ?

Alam Shah · 12th July 2008, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

This would be in line with the period that it was collected by the former owner.

To me the Gonjo / Ganja appears to be an old one. (considering the insight these comments have given me

)?

Correct me if I'm wrong... In the 70's, it's the beginning of 'made to look old' new production pieces, and modified old pieces. It went pass the 80's... perhaps the 'golden age'... till present.

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

That remark must be in a positive way I assume.
Weird stuff like this in no longer made ?

On the contrary, afaik... still in production from borneo... and perhaps elsewhere.

We've known the Sumatran-styled keris panjang and some variants being used, carried in history. I've seen old Sumbawa and Peninsular Malaysia variants... but Javanese? A question... was long pieces like these ever a norm or in use in keraton, regalia or in Javanese culture or elsewhere? Especially the wavy ones...

Battara · 12th July 2008, 04:24 AM

And notice that the naga isn't even gold plate - it is brass - and not well done

PenangsangII · 12th July 2008, 06:18 AM

I believe originally the keris used to be straight one and was filed to create the 51 luks...... What this naga called?

A. G. Maisey · 12th July 2008, 07:03 AM

Shahrial, the resurgence of interest in the keris that took place in the late 1970's generated the current era production, however, to the best of my knowledge, alterations, additions, and outright forgeries have always been a part of the keris trade.

The very first keris I bought in Indonesia, in Jakarta from a salesman in the front yard of the hotel where I was staying, was an alteration:- a very, very 4th rate keris that had had a singo barong added to it, and a lot of kinatah work, the principal purpose of which was to hide the joint. That was near 40 years ago.

That keris was only the first alteration that I bought, I took me years to learn how to identify altered keris---years and years and years. Even after I thought I was pretty smart at this game, I was still tricked; I didn't find this alteration until I got home, but I kept it anyway, because it is so very, very clever. No ahli keris who has examined this keris has picked the alteration until shown where it was.It is by the look of it a very old alteration, my guess would be over 100 years old.

According to Pak Parman there have been people altering and remanufacturing keris for at least a couple of hundred years.

I'm uncertain when the fashion that calls for new keris to be made to look old came into vogue. I suspect that it could be a pretty recent trend, as keris from pre-WWII do not appear to have been subjected to this treatment.

As to keris size in Jawa, amongst old keris there are some very big Tuban blades around, you will see the occasional super-size good quality keris from Surakarta, and the keris panjang also occurred in Jawa, but it is very seldom seen. In fact I haven't seen one now in years. You find a smattering of big East Javanese keris, too.

sjors · 12th July 2008, 07:21 AM

Quote:

I believe originally the keris used to be straight one and was filed to create the 51 luks

Like this? Yes, altering still happens

David · 12th July 2008, 03:06 PM

OMG! Yep, that looks like the source material alright. Where did you find this photo?

sjors · 12th July 2008, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Where did you find this photo?

To be honest, I used Photoshop

sjors · 12th July 2008, 03:57 PM

Change the original (picture) in something else...That's what I call a "shopped" keris

Alam Shah · 12th July 2008, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

... According to Pak Parman there have been people altering and remanufacturing keris for at least a couple of hundred years.

As to keris size in Jawa, amongst old keris there are some very big Tuban blades around, you will see the occasional super-size good quality keris from Surakarta, and the keris panjang also occurred in Jawa, but it is very seldom seen. In fact I haven't seen one now in years. You find a smattering of big East Javanese keris, too.

Thanks Alan for the info and the insight.

I guess the big Tuban keris were found to be ideal for alterations. What is the length of these longer pieces? What are the features of the Javanese keris panjang? If anyone have pictures of the Javanese keris panjang, please do share. Thanks.

David · 12th July 2008, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjors

Change the original (picture) in something else...That's what I call a "shopped" keris

YOU DOG!!!

Nice job.

sjors · 12th July 2008, 07:24 PM

asomotif · 12th July 2008, 08:44 PM

Quote:

To be honest, I used Photoshop

Eek

And I always thought I could make up a lot from a picture.
Turns out to be nothing more than digital info , pixels an imiagination of an image

Nicely done by the way, crapy keris turns into a nice thread

sjors · 12th July 2008, 09:37 PM

As a graphic designer photoretouche is part of my job, so I'm used to it. That's also the reason if someone offers a keris (or something else) on Ebay, I always try to find out if the pictures are "Okay".
Unfortunately there are a some people who try to "clean" (or pimp, if you prefer) their pictures if they are selling something

.

A. G. Maisey · 12th July 2008, 10:43 PM

Shahrial, a big Tuban keris will run about the same as a Bali keris. They were ideal for alteration, and that's the reason you seldom see them now.

The Javanese long keris that I have seen and owned are just like a normal Jawa keris, but longer.The sorsoran is the same form, but more narrow to be in proportion, where there is a rondha it is a Javanese rondha, the material has the appearance of later Javanese material. I have sometimes thought that these might have been South Sumatra keris, and I have had keris in Sumatra dress that looked similar---or maybe the same--- but the ones I think of as Javanese were in old Javanese dress. I've also had long keris that were much earlier, that had blades which were not Javanese, but the dress was old Javanese dress. I have never seen a long keris in a Javanese pakem and to the best of my knowledge there is no tradition of wear. Execution by keris in Central Jawa was carried out, but I do not know exactly how or with what.

11th July 2008, 10:52 AM	#1
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,221	51 luk keris with Naga I bought this 51 luk keris with a brass ? naga. It comes from a collection that was built up around 30 years ago. I bought it together with a keris holder and the seller only wanted to sell it as a set. Any ideas on the age of this keris ? is it an original item ? Any info or comments are welcome. Attached Images

11th July 2008, 10:55 AM	#2
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,221	more pics more pics / also of the keris holder tha came with it. Attached Images

12th July 2008, 03:57 PM	#21
sjors Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 68	Change the original (picture) in something else...That's what I call a "shopped" keris Attached Images

11th July 2008, 12:02 PM	#3
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Nice kerisholder Michael

11th July 2008, 12:16 PM	#4
sjors Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 68	I realy like the kerisholder and its a nice keris but I wonder (so correct me if I'm wrong): is it really 51 luk or is it "reshaped" (so did someone "helped" it to become a 51 luk keris?)...

11th July 2008, 02:16 PM	#5
sjors Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 68	Sorry: did someone help it to "become" a 51 luk keris?...

11th July 2008, 02:55 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,027	Yeah, i like the keris holder as well. The keris itself looks like it has been seriously reshaped. You can see that the grain of the metal does not go with the curves of the blade. The naga was probably added at the same time. Not a very skilled job. Seeing this done to a keris saddens me.

11th July 2008, 04:29 PM	#7
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I agree with David on the keris. The naga is a later addition. Made for tourist purposes. The luk are also made with the same purpose. The blade is that of an older keris. The luk are not forged but filed. The job is probably done at the same time. A shame to abuse an old keris in this way. Nice kerisholder. But also not an old one. As far as I can see on the picture made of very light wood. At the base is a dry crack. Actually a mark for these type of kerisholders.

11th July 2008, 09:24 PM	#10
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,221	Yes, somebody did a serious file job on this one. But is had no idea if this was purely for tourists, obviously it was. The keris holder is indeed light wood. But is is very well made IMHO. It was the keris holder I was after, the keris just came with it.

11th July 2008, 10:03 PM	#11
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	David and Asomotif. Nothing wrong with the kerisholder accept it isn't an old one. For the same reason David I also have a "new" one in my room.

11th July 2008, 10:43 PM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,704	Based upon what I can see in the photographs, this is not an old keris that has been re-shaped, but a recent creation of perhaps the 1970's. The blade shows no evidence of a core, nor of folding. This material gives every appearance of being plain wrought iron, possibly a piece of carriage strapping, or even wheel rim. The gonjo has a surface pattern that could possibly indicate folded material, and if this is so, it may be an old gonjo that has been recycled, however, the depth , smoothness and evenness of the surface pattern on the gonjo could indicate that the pattern has been created by a combination of mechanical and chemical means. Another possibility is that it has been made from the same wrought iron as the rest of the blade and the wrought iron layering has been deeply etched in order to reveal it. Physical examination would easily reveal the true nature of this gonjo, but it is difficult from a photograph. Not a good keris, but interesting in that it shows clearly how far current era keris production has come in a relatively short space of time.

12th July 2008, 04:24 AM	#15
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	And notice that the naga isn't even gold plate - it is brass - and not well done

12th July 2008, 06:18 AM	#16
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	I believe originally the keris used to be straight one and was filed to create the 51 luks...... What this naga called?

12th July 2008, 07:03 AM	#17
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,704	Shahrial, the resurgence of interest in the keris that took place in the late 1970's generated the current era production, however, to the best of my knowledge, alterations, additions, and outright forgeries have always been a part of the keris trade. The very first keris I bought in Indonesia, in Jakarta from a salesman in the front yard of the hotel where I was staying, was an alteration:- a very, very 4th rate keris that had had a singo barong added to it, and a lot of kinatah work, the principal purpose of which was to hide the joint. That was near 40 years ago. That keris was only the first alteration that I bought, I took me years to learn how to identify altered keris---years and years and years. Even after I thought I was pretty smart at this game, I was still tricked; I didn't find this alteration until I got home, but I kept it anyway, because it is so very, very clever. No ahli keris who has examined this keris has picked the alteration until shown where it was.It is by the look of it a very old alteration, my guess would be over 100 years old. According to Pak Parman there have been people altering and remanufacturing keris for at least a couple of hundred years. I'm uncertain when the fashion that calls for new keris to be made to look old came into vogue. I suspect that it could be a pretty recent trend, as keris from pre-WWII do not appear to have been subjected to this treatment. As to keris size in Jawa, amongst old keris there are some very big Tuban blades around, you will see the occasional super-size good quality keris from Surakarta, and the keris panjang also occurred in Jawa, but it is very seldom seen. In fact I haven't seen one now in years. You find a smattering of big East Javanese keris, too.

12th July 2008, 03:06 PM	#19
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,027	OMG! Yep, that looks like the source material alright. Where did you find this photo?

12th July 2008, 07:24 PM	#24
sjors Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 68

12th July 2008, 09:37 PM	#26
sjors Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 68	As a graphic designer photoretouche is part of my job, so I'm used to it. That's also the reason if someone offers a keris (or something else) on Ebay, I always try to find out if the pictures are "Okay". Unfortunately there are a some people who try to "clean" (or pimp, if you prefer) their pictures if they are selling something .

12th July 2008, 10:43 PM	#27
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,704	Shahrial, a big Tuban keris will run about the same as a Bali keris. They were ideal for alteration, and that's the reason you seldom see them now. The Javanese long keris that I have seen and owned are just like a normal Jawa keris, but longer.The sorsoran is the same form, but more narrow to be in proportion, where there is a rondha it is a Javanese rondha, the material has the appearance of later Javanese material. I have sometimes thought that these might have been South Sumatra keris, and I have had keris in Sumatra dress that looked similar---or maybe the same--- but the ones I think of as Javanese were in old Javanese dress. I've also had long keris that were much earlier, that had blades which were not Javanese, but the dress was old Javanese dress. I have never seen a long keris in a Javanese pakem and to the best of my knowledge there is no tradition of wear. Execution by keris in Central Jawa was carried out, but I do not know exactly how or with what.