Talismanic symbols? - Page 2

Jim McDougall · 5th April 2008, 02:57 AM

I find this interesting too Jose. I can only see what looks like a plant in a vase, describing the kundalini or tree of life as Jens has described, however I know that the Moro keris focuses primarily on nagan symbolism. I was amazed to discover that while the serpentine blades represents the naga in motion...the straight blade also represents it...at rest.

Decorative motif, symbols, markings and stylized elements are very confusing in weapons and it truly is hard to determine where symbolism ends and pure motif begins. It seems that certain devices or stylized symbols, such as the squiggle 'S' on the dha, are often placed in repitition as motif that will imbue auspicious meaning in the weapon. Often we have seen ultra simple symbolism such as the three dots applied often only at key locations on a blade, sometimes at a fuller, sometimes separating certain features or other markings on the blade.
The talismanic properties with this application seem very much like those found often on European blades, with certain religious and occult symbols applied near blade elements, inscriptions and marks seemingly to accent or emphasize the potency intended in them.

All very complex, but this is what makes the weapons so incredibly fascinating!

Best regards,
Jim

Battara · 5th April 2008, 08:47 PM

Yes Jim you are correct. Cato in Moro Swords mentions that the naga is a common motif used in especially kris. In fact the blade is the naga. The tree of life motif does not occur deliberately in Moro art. In Maranao Art you do not see this motif, but snakes (nagas) and other animals like crocodiles and birds are used, but only done using okir so that the image is not clear and traditionally conform to the edict in Islam not to make graven images. In the Philippines, Indonesia, and other parts of SE Asia the naga is a power symbol that is used. That is the purpose of a talisman - to empower the user/owner, and in the Philippines the naga and crocodile are such symbols and used on weaponry and cloth all over the southern Philippines (also see Textiles of the Southern Philippines). In the north on Luzon the imagery changes with the frog and lizard being talismans along with the naga (again a power symbol). I would have too look at my library to get the exact pages and other texts I am basing this on.

Jim McDougall · 5th April 2008, 11:38 PM

Hi Jose,
Thank you so much for responding to my comments. These weapons are outside my regular fields of study, so I appreciate your explanation and detail on the symbolism and motif. The concepts seem very similar to those on the talismanic blades of Europe, at least in degree. I know your knowledge on these weapons is extensive, and while references are always nice for the general reading on the thread, they are not necessary for me to know your comments are right on target.

All very best regards,
Jim

Battara · 6th April 2008, 08:47 PM

Jim you have a good point (like the one on my head

) and that is that talismans and talismanic marks are architypal (to use a Jungian term) and therefore many cultures across the planet use or have used them in some form or fashion. Often they are used to ward off not just misfortune or empower the ower, but for some (Indonesia/Malaysia/Philippines) the image, even symbolic, is enough to scare off (hopefully) evil spirits, etc. Another good example is in Bali the use of demon hilt figures to scare off other demons.

Gavin Nugent · 7th April 2008, 06:28 AM

I just received a 1st copy of Eduard Wagner's book Cut and Thrust Weapons. What a huge volume, I didn't think I'd get it home on the tank of the bike. Whilst I am sitting here looking through it, I came across a chapter on this very subject. I don't think I will be able to manipulate my scanner to fit these pages but for those who have a copy on the shelf pages 67-77 are very interesting.

regards

Gav

VVV · 8th April 2008, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

....Both the eyelash, crescent and dots are talismanic symbols to protect from the evil eye.
BUT usually there are either 5 (=fingers of the hand to blind the eye), a pair (=2 eyes) or one (a counter eye) dots?

Michael

Jens,

Having studied the evil eye some more I have found that the "male" triangle is a widespread symbol of an averting eye.
The crescent often represents either an eyebrow or an eyelid.
On you sword with 5 dots this could both represent 2 triangular eyes as well as the number 5 (fingers to blind the evil eye).
Your double crescent motif could be 4 eyes, at the corners, and one, non-visible, eye in the center.

Michael

Jim McDougall · 8th April 2008, 03:11 PM

Jose, that point just means you're sharp!

You're right on the talismanic images, and there are so many applications. One I distinctly remember many years ago was the rabbits foot. It was really popular to wear one of these, until one pillar of wisdom noted, " if thats for good luck, I guess it didnt work too good for the rabbit!".
Still, one cannot diminish the power of positive thinking, belief and faith. In the many forms applied, these markings represent these profoundly, and often help us not only understand, but to identify the provenances of many weapons.

It seems that the triangular geometric applied device is primarily found in the folk religions of North Africa that are nominally Muslim, though it also occurs in Afghan and Central Asian regions, and is known as the 'fibula'. This is indeed to ward off the 'evil eye'. These triangular devices are found as described in a book titled "The Afghan Amulet" (I think by Sheila Payne) and appear worn on clothing and textiles. In North Africa the best example is the triangular linear motif on the flyssa blade.
I am not aware of the triangle used in this sense in Indian weapons, particularly the Hindu forms. In checking Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Ritual" I did not find specific reference to the 'evil eye' ...perhaps I missed it somewhere?

Gav, excellent! You found a copy of Wagner.....extremely important reference, and yes it is huge!! When I loaded my copy into our RV my wife really groaned as I brought it in

I had to convince her that I had left behind nearly a shelf of other books in its place.
Wagner is one of the few, actually probably the only, arms writer who has approached this very important esoterica in weapons, until Elgood that is!

Interesting observations Michael, the expression 'five in the eye' refers to the upheld hand with fingers splayed shielding from the evil eye, and as noted is termed 'fibula' (seems odd as one thinks of one of the two forearm bones).

Best regards,
Jim

VVV · 8th April 2008, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...It seems that the triangular geometric applied device is primarily found in the folk religions of North Africa that are nominally Muslim, though it also occurs in Afghan and Central Asian regions, and is known as the 'fibula'. This is indeed to ward off the 'evil eye'. These triangular devices are found as described in a book titled "The Afghan Amulet" (I think by Sheila Payne) and appear worn on clothing and textiles. In North Africa the best example is the triangular linear motif on the flyssa blade. I am not aware of the triangle used in this sense in Indian weapons, particularly the Hindu forms. In checking Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Ritual" I did not find specific reference to the 'evil eye' ...perhaps I missed it somewhere?...
Jim

Jim,

Here is a quote from Westermarck 1933, Pagan Survivals in Mohammedan Civilisation, page 50 in the chapter The Evil Eye:

"The triangle, again, is used as an amulet in Mediterranean countries, Arabia and India."

Maybe someone else can find more info about it somewhere else?

Michael

Jens Nordlunde · 8th April 2008, 04:44 PM

Thank you Michael, it is very interesting, but also complicated.
A friend sent me the following link http://www.bhagavadgitausa.com/TILAKAM.htm which is huge, and so far I have not read it all, but it gives some interesting explanations. One of the problems is, that some of the symbols may have meant something if you believed in one religion, and something else if you believed in another religion, but many of the symbols on the blades were only used by one religion. But if captured, a good blade was still a good blade, and was used by the capturer.
Jens

Royston · 17th April 2008, 11:54 AM

This thread got me thinking about a Parang Nabur which has been hiding in a chest of drawers for the last 20 years ( Who has a house large enough to display everything ? ). I have just dug it out and photographed the symbols. Anyone seen these before ?

VVV · 17th April 2008, 04:19 PM

These are quite common on Malay weapons from south Borneo.
Yours is related to the Islamic magic square, wafq, where the numeric value of the arabic letters in all directions are the same.
This value represents a "hidden" name. Like the most common one is the Buduh (3 x 3) also known as Adam's seal.
The 4 x 4 is Plato's seal etc...
There is a lot of symbolism within the squares and by itself it also has baraka, "the Force".

Jim McDougall · 17th April 2008, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

These are quite common on Malay weapons from south Borneo.
Yours is related to the Islamic magic square, wafq, where the numeric value of the arabic letters in all directions are the same.
This value represents a "hidden" name. Like the most common one is the Buduh (3 x 3) also known as Adam's seal.
The 4 x 4 is Plato's seal etc...
There is a lot of symbolism within the squares and by itself it also has baraka, "the Force".

Nicely worded and concise comments on this Teodor. While I had known of the buduh, its concept was a bit unclear. Thank you for the info.
All the best,
Jim

Royston · 18th April 2008, 12:31 PM

Thanks for the information VVV. I now have some more reaserch to do.
Royston

7th April 2008, 06:28 AM	#35
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Wagner I just received a 1st copy of Eduard Wagner's book Cut and Thrust Weapons. What a huge volume, I didn't think I'd get it home on the tank of the bike. Whilst I am sitting here looking through it, I came across a chapter on this very subject. I don't think I will be able to manipulate my scanner to fit these pages but for those who have a copy on the shelf pages 67-77 are very interesting. regards Gav

17th April 2008, 11:54 AM	#40
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 441	SYMBOLS ON A PARANG NABUR This thread got me thinking about a Parang Nabur which has been hiding in a chest of drawers for the last 20 years ( Who has a house large enough to display everything ? ). I have just dug it out and photographed the symbols. Anyone seen these before ? Attached Images

18th April 2008, 12:31 PM	#43
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 441	Symbols Thanks for the information VVV. I now have some more reaserch to do. Royston

5th April 2008, 02:57 AM	#31
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,769	I find this interesting too Jose. I can only see what looks like a plant in a vase, describing the kundalini or tree of life as Jens has described, however I know that the Moro keris focuses primarily on nagan symbolism. I was amazed to discover that while the serpentine blades represents the naga in motion...the straight blade also represents it...at rest. Decorative motif, symbols, markings and stylized elements are very confusing in weapons and it truly is hard to determine where symbolism ends and pure motif begins. It seems that certain devices or stylized symbols, such as the squiggle 'S' on the dha, are often placed in repitition as motif that will imbue auspicious meaning in the weapon. Often we have seen ultra simple symbolism such as the three dots applied often only at key locations on a blade, sometimes at a fuller, sometimes separating certain features or other markings on the blade. The talismanic properties with this application seem very much like those found often on European blades, with certain religious and occult symbols applied near blade elements, inscriptions and marks seemingly to accent or emphasize the potency intended in them. All very complex, but this is what makes the weapons so incredibly fascinating! Best regards, Jim

5th April 2008, 08:47 PM	#32
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Yes Jim you are correct. Cato in Moro Swords mentions that the naga is a common motif used in especially kris. In fact the blade is the naga. The tree of life motif does not occur deliberately in Moro art. In Maranao Art you do not see this motif, but snakes (nagas) and other animals like crocodiles and birds are used, but only done using okir so that the image is not clear and traditionally conform to the edict in Islam not to make graven images. In the Philippines, Indonesia, and other parts of SE Asia the naga is a power symbol that is used. That is the purpose of a talisman - to empower the user/owner, and in the Philippines the naga and crocodile are such symbols and used on weaponry and cloth all over the southern Philippines (also see Textiles of the Southern Philippines). In the north on Luzon the imagery changes with the frog and lizard being talismans along with the naga (again a power symbol). I would have too look at my library to get the exact pages and other texts I am basing this on.

5th April 2008, 11:38 PM	#33
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,769	Hi Jose, Thank you so much for responding to my comments. These weapons are outside my regular fields of study, so I appreciate your explanation and detail on the symbolism and motif. The concepts seem very similar to those on the talismanic blades of Europe, at least in degree. I know your knowledge on these weapons is extensive, and while references are always nice for the general reading on the thread, they are not necessary for me to know your comments are right on target. All very best regards, Jim

6th April 2008, 08:47 PM	#34
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Jim you have a good point (like the one on my head ) and that is that talismans and talismanic marks are architypal (to use a Jungian term) and therefore many cultures across the planet use or have used them in some form or fashion. Often they are used to ward off not just misfortune or empower the ower, but for some (Indonesia/Malaysia/Philippines) the image, even symbolic, is enough to scare off (hopefully) evil spirits, etc. Another good example is in Bali the use of demon hilt figures to scare off other demons.

8th April 2008, 03:11 PM	#37
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,769	Jose, that point just means you're sharp! You're right on the talismanic images, and there are so many applications. One I distinctly remember many years ago was the rabbits foot. It was really popular to wear one of these, until one pillar of wisdom noted, " if thats for good luck, I guess it didnt work too good for the rabbit!". Still, one cannot diminish the power of positive thinking, belief and faith. In the many forms applied, these markings represent these profoundly, and often help us not only understand, but to identify the provenances of many weapons. It seems that the triangular geometric applied device is primarily found in the folk religions of North Africa that are nominally Muslim, though it also occurs in Afghan and Central Asian regions, and is known as the 'fibula'. This is indeed to ward off the 'evil eye'. These triangular devices are found as described in a book titled "The Afghan Amulet" (I think by Sheila Payne) and appear worn on clothing and textiles. In North Africa the best example is the triangular linear motif on the flyssa blade. I am not aware of the triangle used in this sense in Indian weapons, particularly the Hindu forms. In checking Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Ritual" I did not find specific reference to the 'evil eye' ...perhaps I missed it somewhere? Gav, excellent! You found a copy of Wagner.....extremely important reference, and yes it is huge!! When I loaded my copy into our RV my wife really groaned as I brought it in I had to convince her that I had left behind nearly a shelf of other books in its place. Wagner is one of the few, actually probably the only, arms writer who has approached this very important esoterica in weapons, until Elgood that is! Interesting observations Michael, the expression 'five in the eye' refers to the upheld hand with fingers splayed shielding from the evil eye, and as noted is termed 'fibula' (seems odd as one thinks of one of the two forearm bones). Best regards, Jim

8th April 2008, 04:44 PM	#39
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Thank you Michael, it is very interesting, but also complicated. A friend sent me the following link http://www.bhagavadgitausa.com/TILAKAM.htm which is huge, and so far I have not read it all, but it gives some interesting explanations. One of the problems is, that some of the symbols may have meant something if you believed in one religion, and something else if you believed in another religion, but many of the symbols on the blades were only used by one religion. But if captured, a good blade was still a good blade, and was used by the capturer. Jens

17th April 2008, 04:19 PM	#41
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	These are quite common on Malay weapons from south Borneo. Yours is related to the Islamic magic square, wafq, where the numeric value of the arabic letters in all directions are the same. This value represents a "hidden" name. Like the most common one is the Buduh (3 x 3) also known as Adam's seal. The 4 x 4 is Plato's seal etc... There is a lot of symbolism within the squares and by itself it also has baraka, "the Force".