Putting together a museum exhibit linking Java keris to Philippine kris - Page 2

tom hyle · 26th June 2010, 01:52 PM

well said

Bill M · 26th June 2010, 02:05 PM

Tom, I did not mean to malign the Indonesian kris as a weapon, more to contrast it with the Moro. The Indonesian tang is small diameter and not usually well-fixed to the handle as compared to the PI / Moro kris.

This is because the handle of an Indonesian keris is made to be removed easily. I don't agree that these two weapons are anywhere near equal in a fight.

If you were in a sword fight, which one would you choose?

As far as the keris/kris question, I consider it a matter of convenience to identify the style of an Indonesian keris to the style of a Moro.

The Buginese keris are also important. My focus needs to revolve around what I have. FI I have two Buginese, while I have 62 Javanese and 23 Balinese. I also have a very few other keris.

Moro and environs, I have 71 kris. I mention these numbers to say that I have substantially more to choose from for this display. The museum patrons have never seen a keris/kris before. Don't want to confuse them with a lot of other keris styles. Big Picture.

Simple. Not going into specifics or pamor or dapor either. Just a comment or so about how a student might want a certain pattern while a merchant or military man might want a different pattern.

A few other weapons and working blades in a case with basic descriptions.

tunggulametung,
Right on with your questions and thank you so much for the diagram you posted.

As far as nomenclature, I may be best to stay with "Handle" and "scabbard" with a diagram showing native language of more specific parts for those viewers who might have an interest. Less confusing.

tom hyle · 26th June 2010, 02:17 PM

hmmmm....
The Indonesian kris tang is not well fixed in its handle because its current use in its culture is somewhat vestigial/ceremonial this does not comment on its use in older times. The connection is regularly updated; one almost never encounters and 18th C kris that hasn't been dressed and undressed many times, and yes, for the last 50 or 100 years with little concern for combat. This says nothing about the original mounting.
I am 5'8" 220# A malay is up to my nipple. I would in a fight prefer a sword of proper size to me. In sword using cultures swords are typically made to fit the user. This is not the only issue, of course (Moro Malays are also to my nipple in height, of course) but just to mention on thing you're not considering.
Consider that convenience and accuracy are often incompatible, re kris/keris.
I suggest at lest on Bugi kris, at least one Bali kris, at least one gunong, at least one "tempius" at least one matulis. What would be super cool is a Visayan (mounted) kris sundang. I bet some forum members might even loan you a piece or two if they can be properly assured the System won't try to steal them.
Using English terminology when speaking with English speakers is definitely best; I agree.

apolaki · 26th June 2010, 05:35 PM

Hello Mr. Tom Hyle,

I don't understand why you are referring to them as Moro malays because they are Filipino.

Amuk Murugul · 26th June 2010, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apolaki

Hello Mr. Tom Hyle,

I don't understand why you are referring to them as Moro malays because they are Filipino.

Hullo everybody

.....hmmm.... I think he is referring to their ethnic grouping, rather than their nationality. Anyway, questions on nationality would best be put to the tribes (both Muslim and non-Muslim) who now reluctantly embrace the 'Moro' label as this is a more recognizable term on the global stage, thereby increasing the chances of success in their aspirations.
Furthermore, not all Philippines tribes are of Malay stock.

Best,

fernando · 27th June 2010, 01:31 PM

Portuguese touched Jawa for the first time in 1512, after taking over Malaca.

We can read comments about local weapons, by period chroniclers:
(Strict translation)
Every Jaoa man, be him rich or poor, will have in his house cris and lance and dagger.
(Tomé Pires 1465-1524 or 40).

The crises (plural for cris) serve them as daggers serve for us; they bring scimitars like the Turks.
(Castanheda 1500-1559).

Concerning races:
(period terminology)
There were in Jawa gentiles and moors; the first inhabited the bush, the late inhabited the coast.
(Duarte Barbosa - 1521, among others).

From the XVI century Portuguese codice kept at Casanatence library, we can see in one of the famous water colours, that the peoples of the Kingdom of Jawa (Jaoa) were called Jaos (at least) by the portuguese.

Fernando

.

tom hyle · 27th June 2010, 05:01 PM

Every man of them in his house, yes, but that didn't mean, for instance, slaves, who I don't think could even dare touch a cris Unless kriss (my actual preferred spelling which I usually keep to my self) was not yet seen as holy at that time? Which I hardly suspect. Note the orientation of the handle in the picture. What does this backward orientation mean in modern times? Peace, I think.?.... Do I digress?

Has everyone read that parang ihlang thread? Super duper wow!!!
BTW re other Moro weapons CharlesS' latest comment/speculation about my pira is exactly spot-on correct and an impressive bit of photo analysis.

I can;'t reply; I can only edit; you believe whatever about where it came frrom; I reiterate I have no interest in convincing you; none at all; I have no particular belief on the origin of the kris; I objectively point out it is nhot a settloed matter. It is a mystery.
Where do I get my ideas? Natives, long-term foreigners/inmigrants to the region, swords, scholars, collectors, makers, books, internet, God. How about you?
And a slave is nbot a common man, nor may be some types oif holy men, unholy men, foreigners, etc......I don't think a slave was to carry a kris; do you? A knife, yes (a slave without a knife isn't much use to his master); a dagger or sword under at least some circumstances and tribes, but a kriss? Do you think so? What's your evidence?

David · 27th June 2010, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

I don't have any need to prove otherwise; I merely point out it is a far from settled matter. A simple search of these forums will show that to anyone. So you please; don't present your favored position as a settled matter.

I believe tha this matter is sort of like the global warming issue Tom. 98% of all scientists will tell you it's true and there are 2% trying their damnest to persuade everyone it is all nonsense.
Until you can prove to me otherwise, the keris orginated in Jawa.

David · 27th June 2010, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

I reiterate kris and keris are not truly two seperate forms. Kris sundang is a type of k[e]ris. In Standard Indonesian "keris" is pronounced "kris".

Actually Tom, i am not convinced that this pronounciation is exactly correct.

David · 27th June 2010, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Technically kris-like swords without a seperate ganga are "iras ganga" "without ganga" and are not kris per se.

What gave you that idea Tom?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Kris per se is a very holy and magical weapon. It can only be used or carried by certain persons for certain purposes, etc.

The keris has been a part of the dress of Indonesian people for centuries, both the royal and elite as well as the common man. It was worn daily and a man wouldn't dream of being without it. An adult male not having at least one keris and probably several (handed down from relatives) would be a big exception in the culture.

Jenny Ida · 5th January 2011, 05:12 PM

Will there be any pictures or details available from this exhibit?

tom hyle · 19th March 2011, 01:22 AM

BTW kris is not a specialty of mine or anything, but from what I've seen available in English/on the internet/including this forum, all of the earliest archaeological evidence (which is scant) is from the mainland Asia.
Of course, it is neccessary to determine "what is kris"
Is it forward leaned blade?
forward curved blade?
the finger grips?
the guard shaped as part of the blade?
the guard shaped as part of the blade but a seperate piece of metal (seperate or true ganga)?
However, AFAIK the matter is unresolved and all responsible experts admit as much.

VANDOO · 23rd March 2011, 03:01 AM

I SUSPECT YOU HAVE GRABBED THE TIP OF A TAIL STICKING OUT OF MURKY WATER FOR FUN AND NOW HAVE FOUND THERE IS AN ALLIGATOR ATTACHED TO IT.

YOU ARE ON THE RIGHT TRACK IN KEEPING THE EXHIBIT SIMPLE AS IT WILL BE MOSTLY FOR PEOPLE WHO KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE KERIS/KRIS AND WILL HAVE NO INTEREST IN LEARNING ALL ABOUT THEM. TO MOST IT WILL JUST BE A DAYS ENTERTAINMENT SO DON'T TRY TO COVER TOO MUCH. LOTS OF GOOD EXAMPLES WILL GO OVER MUCH BETTER THAN THE MOST ACCURATE AND DETAILED WRITTEN DISCOURSE. HISTORY IS GOOD IF YOU HAVE ONE OF THE NICE POSTERS OF THE MARINES ENGAGING THE MORO IT WOULD FIT IN WELL WITH A SHORT WRITTEN ACCOUNT OF THE GENERAL CONFLICT AND THAT BATTLE. GOOD PICTURES OF PEOPLE CARRYING THESE WEAPONS OR MAKING THEM AND PERHAPS A WALL MOUNTED AND STATUE KERIS HOLDER. A PICTURE OF A KERIS WITH ALL PARTS LABELED AND A PICTURE OF A KRIS ALSO LABLED PERHAPS A MAP OR TWO. A BIT ABOUT TRADITION, STORIES MAGICAL AND FACTUAL AND TALISMANS AND THE WARRIORS BELIEFS IN THEM.
THE LONG OBSCURE ROAD
THE EVOLUTION, TRADITIONS AND REGIONAL VARIATIONS OF THE KERIS/KRIS

I HAVE THOUGHT OF DOING SOMETHING SIMILAR AT MUSEUMS HERE BUT HAVE FOUND LOCAL CURATORS TO BE POLITICIANS WHO ARE NOT INTERESTED IN SUCH THINGS.

KuKulzA28 · 23rd March 2011, 03:53 AM

Wow, there is a lot of debate and information being brought up here, but I don't know if it is all directly and immediately pertinent to Bill's mission here.

I think for the average guy, it needs to be simpler. I remember when I was just learning about the keris/kris. That was only maybe 2-3 years ago...

Maybe this is more what Bill is looking for...

Hook: Start with an eye-catcher... something to get people interested
Define: What the hell is a keris/kris? Why should we care? Where is it from?

So now the people are in, they are interested, they want to know more.

Context: Who used them? What for? What time period...
Expand: Touch on the romantic, brutal, spiritual, bloody, golden heydays of the keris... give a little bit about its economic, political, social, spiritual, and combative backgrounds... stuff that'll interest anyone.

Now the people are eager to know more about the history. Not only the keris and how it developed but also the people, their culture, when their history intersects with Islam, then with Westerners, and the modern-day...

History: Follow the path of the keris, from Java (as far as we know) to the Malaysian areas and Bangsamoro
In-depth: Highlight specific case studies of keris... Javanese, Balinese, Moro... that way you can give your audience an in-depth look at more specific examples... highlight similarities and differences between the various case studies... maybe even attach a personal story to each kris if you can find its provenance and the story of its original owner... a Javanese prince? a Moro datu?

Now people are thinking wow... I didn't even know about Java or the Moros... I didn't even know about kris! I want one! Where can I get more books on them?!

Today: It's not all old-bones and dusty history, it's still very much alive!!! Elaborate on how the keris/kris is still very much part of the cultures in maritime SE Asia and how some aspects of it are in the past, and others still very much alive. How the pandays/empus of today make them and how in some ways it is a dying art... but forever a powerful symbol in the Malay world.

..and that way you have accomplished your mission... you have drawn them in, given them a decent amount of information in a simple way, and gotten them interested in the objects and thus the cultures...

following this style of template/guideline, you keris gurus can fill in your knowledge... don't overwhelm your audience all at once! Don't get into the intricacies, esoteric details, or obscure names that only keris experts would know!

...and prices on kris will continue to sky-rocket!

I hope you all take this positively... it's just all too often I see experts inundating others with their knowledge - too much water drowns a plant, too little starves it, but enough causes it to have the energy and the stimuli to keep growing and expanding it's root network...

make it a simple, organized, logic progression that will take the museum-visitor by the hand and lead him/her on a journey that will leave him/her more knowledgeable, having new appreciation, and tantalized and wanting to know more!

David · 23rd March 2011, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

BTW kris is not a specialty of mine or anything, but from what I've seen available in English/on the internet/including this forum, all of the earliest archaeological evidence (which is scant) is from the mainland Asia.
Of course, it is neccessary to determine "what is kris"
Is it forward leaned blade?
forward curved blade?
the finger grips?
the guard shaped as part of the blade?
the guard shaped as part of the blade but a seperate piece of metal (seperate or true ganga)?
However, AFAIK the matter is unresolved and all responsible experts admit as much.

You might want to get off the internet Tom and try a few good, more in depth, books on the subject. I can name you a few if you are truly interested. While they are not perfect either, the internet has a way of recycling quite a bit of false information on the subject and only provide a very small snippet of information, good or bad.
Again, most scholars place the origins of the keris as we know it in Jawa. Most do not consider it unresolved, but i do agree that all would be wise to keep and open mind to any new evidence that might surface in the future. Did this form develop from some previous blade that we would not necessarily recognize as a keris. Well sure, the Javanese people did not invent the concept of the dagger. But there is no evidence to my knowledge of anything resembling the specific form of a keris existing in any part of Asia prior to the emergence of the keris in Java. When the archaeologists dig one up in India or Tibet or whereever i'd be more than happy to consider it.
Also it is the idea of the gonjo that is necessary for a blade to be a keris. Yes Tom, gonjo iras blades are considered "real" keris. Further, the term "gonjo iras" does not mean "without gonjo" as you suggested early in this thead. It means the the gonjo and blade are "one". So you can see from this that the idea of the gonjo continues even if it is not a separate piece from the blade.

tom hyle · 11th June 2011, 07:12 AM

I'm told repeatedly that iras gongo translates "without" a gonjgo (anyone have an actual literal translation of the words for us?), but yes, as I think I said, it does indeed actually mean without a SEPERATE gongo; ie with an integral gonga, or as you say "blade and gonjo are one". Same thing.
The archaeological evidence from India is AFAIK in the form of very old sculptures depicting double-edged forward-curved daggers. This is why I said we must ask first "what is kriss?" but also if kris (as such, defined in tight terms with the elephant the seperate but blade-section guard etc whatever) is from Java (for which I've seen no evidence, but just a lot of repeated declaring), then that does not invalidate the discussion and relation of daggers such as the Hindoo ones that may be ancestral to kris without yet being kris per se. It would be silly to discuss the falchion while denying the relevance of the sax. Now when it comes to Thailand and mainland Malaysia there may be more direct archaeological evidence (ie actual blades).
As in many debates in many feilds I find there are those who declare that things are a certain way, but who seem to ignore evidence or twist definitions to do so. If you boil it down to "the Java kris is from Java" then yeah, the Java kris is from Java, but if you really want to explore where the form originates rather than defining kris per se by Java kris features and then proceeding in a circle, the matter is a bit less clear.
I came back to check out this particularly fascinating thread because I was reading the top 10 wierd swords thread and someone had commented on the kris as noncombative, BTW; I was going to refer that person to this tread, but since I'm now replying to it, that should bring it to the top anyway. My comments on the deadliness of kriss herein are, I think, pretty elucidatory

26th June 2010, 02:17 PM	#33
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	hmmmm.... The Indonesian kris tang is not well fixed in its handle because its current use in its culture is somewhat vestigial/ceremonial this does not comment on its use in older times. The connection is regularly updated; one almost never encounters and 18th C kris that hasn't been dressed and undressed many times, and yes, for the last 50 or 100 years with little concern for combat. This says nothing about the original mounting. I am 5'8" 220# A malay is up to my nipple. I would in a fight prefer a sword of proper size to me. In sword using cultures swords are typically made to fit the user. This is not the only issue, of course (Moro Malays are also to my nipple in height, of course) but just to mention on thing you're not considering. Consider that convenience and accuracy are often incompatible, re kris/keris. I suggest at lest on Bugi kris, at least one Bali kris, at least one gunong, at least one "tempius" at least one matulis. What would be super cool is a Visayan (mounted) kris sundang. I bet some forum members might even loan you a piece or two if they can be properly assured the System won't try to steal them. Using English terminology when speaking with English speakers is definitely best; I agree. Last edited by tom hyle; 26th June 2010 at 02:27 PM. Reason: curious; my private message box denies me access; can I post? What's wrong?

27th June 2010, 01:31 PM	#36
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Just for perusal Portuguese touched Jawa for the first time in 1512, after taking over Malaca. We can read comments about local weapons, by period chroniclers: (Strict translation) Every Jaoa man, be him rich or poor, will have in his house cris and lance and dagger. (Tomé Pires 1465-1524 or 40). The crises (plural for cris) serve them as daggers serve for us; they bring scimitars like the Turks. (Castanheda 1500-1559). Concerning races: (period terminology) There were in Jawa gentiles and moors; the first inhabited the bush, the late inhabited the coast. (Duarte Barbosa - 1521, among others). From the XVI century Portuguese codice kept at Casanatence library, we can see in one of the famous water colours, that the peoples of the Kingdom of Jawa (Jaoa) were called Jaos (at least) by the portuguese. Fernando . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 27th June 2010 at 04:49 PM.

27th June 2010, 05:01 PM	#37
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Every man of them in his house, yes, but that didn't mean, for instance, slaves, who I don't think could even dare touch a cris Unless kriss (my actual preferred spelling which I usually keep to my self) was not yet seen as holy at that time? Which I hardly suspect. Note the orientation of the handle in the picture. What does this backward orientation mean in modern times? Peace, I think.?.... Do I digress? Has everyone read that parang ihlang thread? Super duper wow!!! BTW re other Moro weapons CharlesS' latest comment/speculation about my pira is exactly spot-on correct and an impressive bit of photo analysis. I can;'t reply; I can only edit; you believe whatever about where it came frrom; I reiterate I have no interest in convincing you; none at all; I have no particular belief on the origin of the kris; I objectively point out it is nhot a settloed matter. It is a mystery. Where do I get my ideas? Natives, long-term foreigners/inmigrants to the region, swords, scholars, collectors, makers, books, internet, God. How about you? And a slave is nbot a common man, nor may be some types oif holy men, unholy men, foreigners, etc......I don't think a slave was to carry a kris; do you? A knife, yes (a slave without a knife isn't much use to his master); a dagger or sword under at least some circumstances and tribes, but a kriss? Do you think so? What's your evidence? Last edited by tom hyle; 27th June 2010 at 11:23 PM.

23rd March 2011, 03:53 AM	#44
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Wow, there is a lot of debate and information being brought up here, but I don't know if it is all directly and immediately pertinent to Bill's mission here. I think for the average guy, it needs to be simpler. I remember when I was just learning about the keris/kris. That was only maybe 2-3 years ago... Maybe this is more what Bill is looking for... Hook: Start with an eye-catcher... something to get people interested Define: What the hell is a keris/kris? Why should we care? Where is it from? So now the people are in, they are interested, they want to know more. Context: Who used them? What for? What time period... Expand: Touch on the romantic, brutal, spiritual, bloody, golden heydays of the keris... give a little bit about its economic, political, social, spiritual, and combative backgrounds... stuff that'll interest anyone. Now the people are eager to know more about the history. Not only the keris and how it developed but also the people, their culture, when their history intersects with Islam, then with Westerners, and the modern-day... History: Follow the path of the keris, from Java (as far as we know) to the Malaysian areas and Bangsamoro In-depth: Highlight specific case studies of keris... Javanese, Balinese, Moro... that way you can give your audience an in-depth look at more specific examples... highlight similarities and differences between the various case studies... maybe even attach a personal story to each kris if you can find its provenance and the story of its original owner... a Javanese prince? a Moro datu? Now people are thinking wow... I didn't even know about Java or the Moros... I didn't even know about kris! I want one! Where can I get more books on them?! Today: It's not all old-bones and dusty history, it's still very much alive!!! Elaborate on how the keris/kris is still very much part of the cultures in maritime SE Asia and how some aspects of it are in the past, and others still very much alive. How the pandays/empus of today make them and how in some ways it is a dying art... but forever a powerful symbol in the Malay world. ..and that way you have accomplished your mission... you have drawn them in, given them a decent amount of information in a simple way, and gotten them interested in the objects and thus the cultures... following this style of template/guideline, you keris gurus can fill in your knowledge... don't overwhelm your audience all at once! Don't get into the intricacies, esoteric details, or obscure names that only keris experts would know! ...and prices on kris will continue to sky-rocket! I hope you all take this positively... it's just all too often I see experts inundating others with their knowledge - too much water drowns a plant, too little starves it, but enough causes it to have the energy and the stimuli to keep growing and expanding it's root network... make it a simple, organized, logic progression that will take the museum-visitor by the hand and lead him/her on a journey that will leave him/her more knowledgeable, having new appreciation, and tantalized and wanting to know more!

26th June 2010, 01:52 PM	#31
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	well said

26th June 2010, 02:05 PM	#32
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Tom, I did not mean to malign the Indonesian kris as a weapon, more to contrast it with the Moro. The Indonesian tang is small diameter and not usually well-fixed to the handle as compared to the PI / Moro kris. This is because the handle of an Indonesian keris is made to be removed easily. I don't agree that these two weapons are anywhere near equal in a fight. If you were in a sword fight, which one would you choose? As far as the keris/kris question, I consider it a matter of convenience to identify the style of an Indonesian keris to the style of a Moro. The Buginese keris are also important. My focus needs to revolve around what I have. FI I have two Buginese, while I have 62 Javanese and 23 Balinese. I also have a very few other keris. Moro and environs, I have 71 kris. I mention these numbers to say that I have substantially more to choose from for this display. The museum patrons have never seen a keris/kris before. Don't want to confuse them with a lot of other keris styles. Big Picture. Simple. Not going into specifics or pamor or dapor either. Just a comment or so about how a student might want a certain pattern while a merchant or military man might want a different pattern. A few other weapons and working blades in a case with basic descriptions. tunggulametung, Right on with your questions and thank you so much for the diagram you posted. As far as nomenclature, I may be best to stay with "Handle" and "scabbard" with a diagram showing native language of more specific parts for those viewers who might have an interest. Less confusing.

26th June 2010, 05:35 PM	#34
apolaki Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 160	Hello Mr. Tom Hyle, I don't understand why you are referring to them as Moro malays because they are Filipino.

5th January 2011, 05:12 PM	#41
Jenny Ida Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 12	Will there be any pictures or details available from this exhibit?

19th March 2011, 01:22 AM	#42
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	BTW kris is not a specialty of mine or anything, but from what I've seen available in English/on the internet/including this forum, all of the earliest archaeological evidence (which is scant) is from the mainland Asia. Of course, it is neccessary to determine "what is kris" Is it forward leaned blade? forward curved blade? the finger grips? the guard shaped as part of the blade? the guard shaped as part of the blade but a seperate piece of metal (seperate or true ganga)? However, AFAIK the matter is unresolved and all responsible experts admit as much.

23rd March 2011, 03:01 AM	#43
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I SUSPECT YOU HAVE GRABBED THE TIP OF A TAIL STICKING OUT OF MURKY WATER FOR FUN AND NOW HAVE FOUND THERE IS AN ALLIGATOR ATTACHED TO IT. YOU ARE ON THE RIGHT TRACK IN KEEPING THE EXHIBIT SIMPLE AS IT WILL BE MOSTLY FOR PEOPLE WHO KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE KERIS/KRIS AND WILL HAVE NO INTEREST IN LEARNING ALL ABOUT THEM. TO MOST IT WILL JUST BE A DAYS ENTERTAINMENT SO DON'T TRY TO COVER TOO MUCH. LOTS OF GOOD EXAMPLES WILL GO OVER MUCH BETTER THAN THE MOST ACCURATE AND DETAILED WRITTEN DISCOURSE. HISTORY IS GOOD IF YOU HAVE ONE OF THE NICE POSTERS OF THE MARINES ENGAGING THE MORO IT WOULD FIT IN WELL WITH A SHORT WRITTEN ACCOUNT OF THE GENERAL CONFLICT AND THAT BATTLE. GOOD PICTURES OF PEOPLE CARRYING THESE WEAPONS OR MAKING THEM AND PERHAPS A WALL MOUNTED AND STATUE KERIS HOLDER. A PICTURE OF A KERIS WITH ALL PARTS LABELED AND A PICTURE OF A KRIS ALSO LABLED PERHAPS A MAP OR TWO. A BIT ABOUT TRADITION, STORIES MAGICAL AND FACTUAL AND TALISMANS AND THE WARRIORS BELIEFS IN THEM. THE LONG OBSCURE ROAD THE EVOLUTION, TRADITIONS AND REGIONAL VARIATIONS OF THE KERIS/KRIS I HAVE THOUGHT OF DOING SOMETHING SIMILAR AT MUSEUMS HERE BUT HAVE FOUND LOCAL CURATORS TO BE POLITICIANS WHO ARE NOT INTERESTED IN SUCH THINGS.

11th June 2011, 07:12 AM	#46
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I'm told repeatedly that iras gongo translates "without" a gonjgo (anyone have an actual literal translation of the words for us?), but yes, as I think I said, it does indeed actually mean without a SEPERATE gongo; ie with an integral gonga, or as you say "blade and gonjo are one". Same thing. The archaeological evidence from India is AFAIK in the form of very old sculptures depicting double-edged forward-curved daggers. This is why I said we must ask first "what is kriss?" but also if kris (as such, defined in tight terms with the elephant the seperate but blade-section guard etc whatever) is from Java (for which I've seen no evidence, but just a lot of repeated declaring), then that does not invalidate the discussion and relation of daggers such as the Hindoo ones that may be ancestral to kris without yet being kris per se. It would be silly to discuss the falchion while denying the relevance of the sax. Now when it comes to Thailand and mainland Malaysia there may be more direct archaeological evidence (ie actual blades). As in many debates in many feilds I find there are those who declare that things are a certain way, but who seem to ignore evidence or twist definitions to do so. If you boil it down to "the Java kris is from Java" then yeah, the Java kris is from Java, but if you really want to explore where the form originates rather than defining kris per se by Java kris features and then proceeding in a circle, the matter is a bit less clear. I came back to check out this particularly fascinating thread because I was reading the top 10 wierd swords thread and someone had commented on the kris as noncombative, BTW; I was going to refer that person to this tread, but since I'm now replying to it, that should bring it to the top anyway. My comments on the deadliness of kriss herein are, I think, pretty elucidatory