A Tulwar with an interesting hilt

katana · 9th February 2009, 04:05 PM

Hi
recently finished on eBay a seemingly very interesting and desirable Tulwar. Does anyone have any more details regarding the hilt.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=012

Thank you
Regards David

CourseEight · 9th February 2009, 08:17 PM

I saw this auction too. Here's a link to a similar one recently sold by Ashoka Arts:

http://www.ashokaarts.com/edgedweapons/ew-30.html

Jens Nordlunde · 9th February 2009, 09:39 PM

Why does Ashoka Arts not write form where the sword is?
Jens

asomotif · 9th February 2009, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Why does Ashoka Arts not write form where the sword is?

Hello Jens,

Do you mean why he does not write on this forum ?
Or do you mean the info on his website is insufficient ?

Maybe you can check with him via his e-mail ?

Nice hiltform by the way.

Rick · 10th February 2009, 12:21 AM

Stupid question probably; are these the same sword ?

kisak · 10th February 2009, 02:34 AM

Reminds me a bit of some old British baskethilts, for what that's worth. Mostly due to the pommel shape I think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Stupid question probably; are these the same sword ?

They're different. Look at the decoration of the blade, and the shape of the quillions, for example.

Jim McDougall · 10th February 2009, 03:56 AM

Spot on! as they say Kisak!!

Ashoka makes reference to a Victoria & Albert example in Rawson, and notes the NW India attribution about end of 18th early 19th century, to which I completely agree ("The Indian Sword" . P.Rawson, #46, citing number I.M.98-1955).

It would appear that there are at least three, certainly likely more, of this exact hilt, and the Arabesque koftgari of course seems of Mughal style. I think Jens far better at assessing that characteristic, so that is just my guess.
As for the sword overall, the ebay example seems to have a British M1788 light cavalry sabre blade, and I have seen other hybrid sabres of NW India with M1788 sabre blades in other cases. One was a shamshir style hilt, solid steel with Indian tulwar quillons and langets. The blade had koftgari at the forte in similar fashion.

In the British Raj, there was indeed a particular interest in Scottish basket hilts in many regions where some Scottish officers seem to have had these, though the only illustrations I have seen of native officers wearing them were later in the 19th c. In this case, if I recall, it was a Khyber Rifles unit.
I think the influence was far earlier, as suggested here, probably post-Seringapatam.

I think probably one of the most fascinating aspects of collecting the weapons of India are these hybrid forms, not simply tulwars with trade blades, but with regulation military blades that seem to fall outside that group. I have seen tulwars with blued and decorated officers blades and other marked military blades .

Beyond noting these instances of similar type characteristics, it would be hard to see who they were for, but clearly unique and seemingly quite rare.

All best regards,
Jim

Aleksey G. · 10th February 2009, 05:29 AM

The "onion" hilt to me says afgani pulwar, so I would say a mix of indian and afgani swords. That side guard is what got me puzzled... Very unusual piece indeed.
Rick - the one from Ashoka is not the same one.
Included is another example I found online with all its gold work intact.

Alex

ward · 10th February 2009, 02:07 PM

Afghan would definatly be my vote. Interesting mix the onion bulb shows the early persian influence, with the guard showing a european influence and the decoration coming from india. That is what I love about afghan pieces the mix of different developments within the weapons scope mixed into their own culture

Jens Nordlunde · 10th February 2009, 03:26 PM

In Indian Art in Marlborough House, case A, Heldley shows one being no 1, and writes it is a present from H.H. the Nizam – so now we have moved to Hyderabad, and not the Hyderabad in Sind. It is not exactly like the first one shown, but very much alike.

roshan · 28th March 2009, 11:26 AM

I saw several such swords in the Wallace collection, all attributed to the Sindh, Punjab and Kashmir regions. I may have taken some pictures of the swords on the sly, ill try to dig them up and post them.

9th February 2009, 04:05 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	A Tulwar with an interesting hilt Hi recently finished on eBay a seemingly very interesting and desirable Tulwar. Does anyone have any more details regarding the hilt. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=012 Thank you Regards David Attached Images

10th February 2009, 05:29 AM	#8
Aleksey G. Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 70	The "onion" hilt to me says afgani pulwar, so I would say a mix of indian and afgani swords. That side guard is what got me puzzled... Very unusual piece indeed. Rick - the one from Ashoka is not the same one. Included is another example I found online with all its gold work intact. Alex Attached Images

10th February 2009, 03:26 PM	#10
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	In Indian Art in Marlborough House, case A, Heldley shows one being no 1, and writes it is a present from H.H. the Nizam – so now we have moved to Hyderabad, and not the Hyderabad in Sind. It is not exactly like the first one shown, but very much alike. Attached Images

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9th February 2009, 08:17 PM	#2
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	I saw this auction too. Here's a link to a similar one recently sold by Ashoka Arts: http://www.ashokaarts.com/edgedweapons/ew-30.html

9th February 2009, 09:39 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Why does Ashoka Arts not write form where the sword is? Jens

10th February 2009, 12:21 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Stupid question probably; are these the same sword ?

10th February 2009, 03:56 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Spot on! as they say Kisak!! Ashoka makes reference to a Victoria & Albert example in Rawson, and notes the NW India attribution about end of 18th early 19th century, to which I completely agree ("The Indian Sword" . P.Rawson, #46, citing number I.M.98-1955). It would appear that there are at least three, certainly likely more, of this exact hilt, and the Arabesque koftgari of course seems of Mughal style. I think Jens far better at assessing that characteristic, so that is just my guess. As for the sword overall, the ebay example seems to have a British M1788 light cavalry sabre blade, and I have seen other hybrid sabres of NW India with M1788 sabre blades in other cases. One was a shamshir style hilt, solid steel with Indian tulwar quillons and langets. The blade had koftgari at the forte in similar fashion. In the British Raj, there was indeed a particular interest in Scottish basket hilts in many regions where some Scottish officers seem to have had these, though the only illustrations I have seen of native officers wearing them were later in the 19th c. In this case, if I recall, it was a Khyber Rifles unit. I think the influence was far earlier, as suggested here, probably post-Seringapatam. I think probably one of the most fascinating aspects of collecting the weapons of India are these hybrid forms, not simply tulwars with trade blades, but with regulation military blades that seem to fall outside that group. I have seen tulwars with blued and decorated officers blades and other marked military blades . Beyond noting these instances of similar type characteristics, it would be hard to see who they were for, but clearly unique and seemingly quite rare. All best regards, Jim

10th February 2009, 02:07 PM	#9
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Afghan would definatly be my vote. Interesting mix the onion bulb shows the early persian influence, with the guard showing a european influence and the decoration coming from india. That is what I love about afghan pieces the mix of different developments within the weapons scope mixed into their own culture

28th March 2009, 11:26 AM	#11
roshan Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 20	I saw several such swords in the Wallace collection, all attributed to the Sindh, Punjab and Kashmir regions. I may have taken some pictures of the swords on the sly, ill try to dig them up and post them.