German? Prussian?

Yustas · 22nd May 2009, 03:34 AM

Please, have a look at this sabre. Picture qualty isn't that great, but it's all i have at the moment.
It has WK&C Solingen logo onthe base of the blade, but the tip o the blade is confusing me.
My thaught is this is mid 19 ct German saber.
Can you tell me more?

Jim McDougall · 22nd May 2009, 01:48 PM

Thank you.
The Solingen markings indicate of course that this is a German made blade, which in the 19th century were prevalent for export to most countries.
The single carrying ring on the scabbard suggests latter 19th century date as a rule, with of course likely exceptions, and the hilt seems German or Austrian.

The tip is a spear point style, which often is seen on sabres as after the Napoleonic period there was a strong debate on whether cut or thrust was the more effective use, as well as the search for blade form effective in both.
During the Napoleonic Wars, the British cavalry swords were typically of 'hatchet tip' form with heavy profile radiused tips for slashing cuts.
Just before Waterloo, the Scots Greys were ordered to grind down the backs of their blades on the heavy straight swords into spear points.
The French cavalry was typically ordered to 'give point', and even the light cavalry with sabres often charged with swords held at high tierce position for thrusting.

While at the moment I cannot check resources for better references and this is what I can think of offhand , I am hoping others here might respond with better answers.

I appreciate you posting this here...interesting sabre!

Best regards,
Jim

Yustas · 22nd May 2009, 06:35 PM

Great, thank you.
When i'll have better pictures- i'll add them here.
But in overall, is this piece is somehow rare, or wery typical to the period?

Jim McDougall · 22nd May 2009, 09:45 PM

Yustas, it is seldom that a standard type military sword is of the 'rare' catagory, and frankly it is a matter of perspective. I have seen issue type sabres of which only a set number were made, and sometimes most of the issued swords did not survive obsolescence if they did not end up with militia, yeomanry or ersatz units. Still, rarity is a complex term, are you referring to the style tip or sword type overall?
I'll check Wagner, Bezdek and some other references shortly and get back to you......unless of course there might be someone else out there reading this, and might have information

Best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 23rd May 2009, 04:23 AM

Well I've spent some time looking at Wagner and Bezdek references, and found some interesting things.

In "German Swords and Swordmakers" (Richard Bezdek, 2000) on p.204 there is a well done line drawing of a sabre identical to this example, down to the single ring scabbard and spear point. This drawing is by Gerd Maier, who has apparantly written a number of books on German swords.
This drawing is captioned a model 1813 hussar sabre (it is with grouping of drawings labeled as Prussian swords. Later in the grouping is a drawing of a model 1817 hussar sabre (p.217) with three bar guard which resembles the French cuirassier hilts.
I realize that in this time the French dominated in degree the weapons making in parts of Germany, but my question is why the Prussians would have had a M1811, M1813 and M1817 of hussar sabres, all different in hilt?

By 1807, the Prussians were importing British M1796 light cavalry sabres in number and received 6000 that year, by 1813 they had received 10,000.
("The Prussian Model 1811 Cavalry Sabre", Richard Dellar & Jean Binck, Classic Arms and Militaria, Vol.8, #4, July/August 2001).
French blockade caused the interruption in import, resulting in the Prussians developing thier own almost indistinguishable version of these British sabres, which became known as the M1811. These were in production for the next thirty years, and by 1870 there were around 70,000 of these in stores and in use.

The sabre shown here, as I have noted earlier, seems of the type from the latter 19th century and often issued to various German military units, despite the caption of the drawing in the Bezdek source. Since the Bezdek book is actually more of a compendium of makers and miscellaneous data, but unfortunately without text or detail on these sword patterns, it is hard to determine more on the examples in the drawings.
It would be interesting to know if this sabre shown as a model 1813 hussar sabre had more history to support that attribution, and what is even more compelling for the latter 19th century date I suggest is the makers mark.

The venerable Solingen swordmaking makers the Weyersberg family did not merge with the equally prominant maker of Kirschbaum until 1883, with the initials WK&C representing Weyersberg, Kirschbaum & Cie. They were still in business in 2005.

I feel this is is most probably a sabre of latter 19th c. probably pre WWI, based on the markings on the blade and the general style, which though somewhat like the stirrup hilt model 1811 Blucher sabel, is clearly not the same. Only a more thorough reference to Imperial German military swords would confirm the exact pattern, and I do not have those on hand.
I do know that "Cut and Thrust Weapons" (Eduard Wagner, Praque, 1967) does not show this pattern, and I did check the German, Austrian and French sections.

I hope any of this helps......as I say, I did find this exact pattern sabre in Bezdek shown as a model 1813 hussar sabre, but I honestly cannot accept this attribution.

A sabre conundrum indeed!!! Any other takers out there?

All the best,
Jim

Yustas · 23rd May 2009, 05:00 AM

Awesome research, thank you. Still waiting for more pictures.

Jim McDougall · 23rd May 2009, 06:06 AM

My pleasure Yustas! I hope we can turn up more defined information of this and look forward to more pictures..especially of the marking and if there are any numeric stamps or other markings.

All the best,
Jim

ingvar · 23rd May 2009, 08:04 AM

Here some more images of this saber...

There is no numeric markings.

Its known that Weyersberg, Kirschbaum & Cie was making sword replicas. To me this model looks like a 1855 Bavarian Artillery Officer's sword i've seen once. That one was made by WKC circa 1910. It makes sense that a replica wouldn't have a serial number.

I don't know much about German swordsmanship tho, just a thought.

ingvar · 24th May 2009, 04:20 AM

Well i didn't mean "replica" as how we understand this word now. Quality-wise it was indistinguishable from the original, as we know WKC products are hand forged to this day.

What i more meant to say it was a "special order".

Here's image of a very similar presentation version of a Bavarian Artillery Officer's Model 1855

HERE is a similar saber, Solingen-made too, but identical to a sample of "Imperial Bavarian Artillery Sword" in a 1906 Eickhorn catalogue. This identical sword appears on Page 124 of the Imperial catalogue and is listed as Model No. 266.

on one of the internet auctions this sword was listed as "rare ww1 era german artillery sword"

another one

it has a personalized blade, so no maker marks.

"...An illustration of this pattern sword appears on page 426 of Swords of Germany 1900/1945 by John R. Angolia..."

"...This etch pattern matches Pattern No. 492, "Klinge zu Mannschafts-Extra-Säbel" as shown in the 1908 Carl Eickhorn sales catalog..."

Jim McDougall · 24th May 2009, 08:16 PM

Thank you very much Ingvar, for checking those references and for the detail on this. It did seem like this might be of the type issued to artillery units and other ersatz units in WWI. I understood what you meant by special issue, which these ersatz units would have been as they were replacement units and equipment would have been special ordered.

All best regards,
Jim

P.S. I'd still love to discover how the Bezdek reference arrived at the M1813 hussar sabre designator for this.

22nd May 2009, 03:34 AM	#1
Yustas Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 40	German? Prussian? Please, have a look at this sabre. Picture qualty isn't that great, but it's all i have at the moment. It has WK&C Solingen logo onthe base of the blade, but the tip o the blade is confusing me. My thaught is this is mid 19 ct German saber. Can you tell me more? Attached Images

24th May 2009, 04:20 AM	#9
ingvar Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 11	Well i didn't mean "replica" as how we understand this word now. Quality-wise it was indistinguishable from the original, as we know WKC products are hand forged to this day. What i more meant to say it was a "special order". Here's image of a very similar presentation version of a Bavarian Artillery Officer's Model 1855 HERE is a similar saber, Solingen-made too, but identical to a sample of "Imperial Bavarian Artillery Sword" in a 1906 Eickhorn catalogue. This identical sword appears on Page 124 of the Imperial catalogue and is listed as Model No. 266. on one of the internet auctions this sword was listed as "rare ww1 era german artillery sword" another one it has a personalized blade, so no maker marks. "...An illustration of this pattern sword appears on page 426 of Swords of Germany 1900/1945 by John R. Angolia..." "...This etch pattern matches Pattern No. 492, "Klinge zu Mannschafts-Extra-Säbel" as shown in the 1908 Carl Eickhorn sales catalog..." Last edited by ingvar; 24th May 2009 at 05:11 AM.

22nd May 2009, 01:48 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Thank you. The Solingen markings indicate of course that this is a German made blade, which in the 19th century were prevalent for export to most countries. The single carrying ring on the scabbard suggests latter 19th century date as a rule, with of course likely exceptions, and the hilt seems German or Austrian. The tip is a spear point style, which often is seen on sabres as after the Napoleonic period there was a strong debate on whether cut or thrust was the more effective use, as well as the search for blade form effective in both. During the Napoleonic Wars, the British cavalry swords were typically of 'hatchet tip' form with heavy profile radiused tips for slashing cuts. Just before Waterloo, the Scots Greys were ordered to grind down the backs of their blades on the heavy straight swords into spear points. The French cavalry was typically ordered to 'give point', and even the light cavalry with sabres often charged with swords held at high tierce position for thrusting. While at the moment I cannot check resources for better references and this is what I can think of offhand , I am hoping others here might respond with better answers. I appreciate you posting this here...interesting sabre! Best regards, Jim

22nd May 2009, 06:35 PM	#3
Yustas Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 40	Great, thank you. When i'll have better pictures- i'll add them here. But in overall, is this piece is somehow rare, or wery typical to the period?

22nd May 2009, 09:45 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Yustas, it is seldom that a standard type military sword is of the 'rare' catagory, and frankly it is a matter of perspective. I have seen issue type sabres of which only a set number were made, and sometimes most of the issued swords did not survive obsolescence if they did not end up with militia, yeomanry or ersatz units. Still, rarity is a complex term, are you referring to the style tip or sword type overall? I'll check Wagner, Bezdek and some other references shortly and get back to you......unless of course there might be someone else out there reading this, and might have information Best regards, Jim

23rd May 2009, 04:23 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Well I've spent some time looking at Wagner and Bezdek references, and found some interesting things. In "German Swords and Swordmakers" (Richard Bezdek, 2000) on p.204 there is a well done line drawing of a sabre identical to this example, down to the single ring scabbard and spear point. This drawing is by Gerd Maier, who has apparantly written a number of books on German swords. This drawing is captioned a model 1813 hussar sabre (it is with grouping of drawings labeled as Prussian swords. Later in the grouping is a drawing of a model 1817 hussar sabre (p.217) with three bar guard which resembles the French cuirassier hilts. I realize that in this time the French dominated in degree the weapons making in parts of Germany, but my question is why the Prussians would have had a M1811, M1813 and M1817 of hussar sabres, all different in hilt? By 1807, the Prussians were importing British M1796 light cavalry sabres in number and received 6000 that year, by 1813 they had received 10,000. ("The Prussian Model 1811 Cavalry Sabre", Richard Dellar & Jean Binck, Classic Arms and Militaria, Vol.8, #4, July/August 2001). French blockade caused the interruption in import, resulting in the Prussians developing thier own almost indistinguishable version of these British sabres, which became known as the M1811. These were in production for the next thirty years, and by 1870 there were around 70,000 of these in stores and in use. The sabre shown here, as I have noted earlier, seems of the type from the latter 19th century and often issued to various German military units, despite the caption of the drawing in the Bezdek source. Since the Bezdek book is actually more of a compendium of makers and miscellaneous data, but unfortunately without text or detail on these sword patterns, it is hard to determine more on the examples in the drawings. It would be interesting to know if this sabre shown as a model 1813 hussar sabre had more history to support that attribution, and what is even more compelling for the latter 19th century date I suggest is the makers mark. The venerable Solingen swordmaking makers the Weyersberg family did not merge with the equally prominant maker of Kirschbaum until 1883, with the initials WK&C representing Weyersberg, Kirschbaum & Cie. They were still in business in 2005. I feel this is is most probably a sabre of latter 19th c. probably pre WWI, based on the markings on the blade and the general style, which though somewhat like the stirrup hilt model 1811 Blucher sabel, is clearly not the same. Only a more thorough reference to Imperial German military swords would confirm the exact pattern, and I do not have those on hand. I do know that "Cut and Thrust Weapons" (Eduard Wagner, Praque, 1967) does not show this pattern, and I did check the German, Austrian and French sections. I hope any of this helps......as I say, I did find this exact pattern sabre in Bezdek shown as a model 1813 hussar sabre, but I honestly cannot accept this attribution. A sabre conundrum indeed!!! Any other takers out there? All the best, Jim

23rd May 2009, 05:00 AM	#6
Yustas Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 40	Awesome research, thank you. Still waiting for more pictures.

23rd May 2009, 06:06 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	My pleasure Yustas! I hope we can turn up more defined information of this and look forward to more pictures..especially of the marking and if there are any numeric stamps or other markings. All the best, Jim

23rd May 2009, 08:04 AM	#8
ingvar Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 11	Here some more images of this saber... There is no numeric markings. Its known that Weyersberg, Kirschbaum & Cie was making sword replicas. To me this model looks like a 1855 Bavarian Artillery Officer's sword i've seen once. That one was made by WKC circa 1910. It makes sense that a replica wouldn't have a serial number. I don't know much about German swordsmanship tho, just a thought.

24th May 2009, 08:16 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Thank you very much Ingvar, for checking those references and for the detail on this. It did seem like this might be of the type issued to artillery units and other ersatz units in WWI. I understood what you meant by special issue, which these ersatz units would have been as they were replacement units and equipment would have been special ordered. All best regards, Jim P.S. I'd still love to discover how the Bezdek reference arrived at the M1813 hussar sabre designator for this.