Unusual Quaddara

mariusgmioc · 8th July 2021, 04:05 PM

Hmmm.... now that you are saying....

The photos are very poor quality but I find surprising the fairly pristine condition of the cutting edge, relative to the koftgari area. Usually, the proximity of the cutting edge and mostly the tip of the blade (that is usually inside the chape) are the most affected by pitting.

I also find interesting how even the rust is on the koftgari areas.

But I am known to be on the paranoid side...

Kubur · 8th July 2021, 04:26 PM

I think it's fine, look at the metal parts of the hilt, they look similar and rusted as well. Just bad photos... Nice stuff BTW

mariusgmioc · 8th July 2021, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hmmm.... now that you are saying....

The photos are very poor quality but I find surprising the fairly pristine condition of the cutting edge, relative to the koftgari area. Usually, the proximity of the cutting edge and mostly the tip of the blade (that is usually inside the chape) are the most affected by pitting.

I also find interesting how even the rust is on the koftgari areas.

But I am known to be on the paranoid side...

PS: Yet despite the bad photos and interesting rust distribution, I am inclined to believe it is a genuine antique piece.

francantolin · 8th July 2021, 07:54 PM

I often used ''gentle'' acids like regular coke for remove rust and keep a nice patina , the koftgari isn't damaged.
a solution with diluted ferric chlorid works too.
vinegar is ok but, as mentioned, often the steel turns dull...

on the other side of the PH scale, baking soda is ok to turn rust over and preserve silver or golden koftgari
,only problem: sometimes it cleans and shine too much. and all patina is lost...

PS: I do that when the kofgari is no more visible and covered by rust, In your case,I find too its ok so just a little oil/''magic''WD40
will be good if you are afraid to lose some kofgari or aged patina...

ariel · 8th July 2021, 11:32 PM

Marius,
I did not go into explanations of the obvious: the edge was cleaned. There was no koftgari there and there were no technical limitations
As I mentioned earlier, I have used fine sandpaper on the fullers,

ariel · 8th July 2021, 11:38 PM

Francantolin,
I am intrigued by your techniques of coke and soda. Can you elaborate?

mahratt · 9th July 2021, 06:00 AM

I apologize in advance. What I post in this comment is just an opinion. So everyone can continue to think as they want

Two replies from the Russian forum, where I posted photos of the "unique quadarra":

1) All metal parts including the blade are aged with acid. You will never find a struck mark of same shape on original item.

2) On a note to "expert": if you see such incomprehensible garbage, then feel free to write "Syria", there they will make "any whim for his money" for the buyer

mariusgmioc · 9th July 2021, 08:38 AM

Thank you Mahratt for these better pictures!

You raise an interesting issue.

The corrosion on the blade appears to be genuine to my eyes.

However, I find it very strange that it is so evenly spread across the whole blade. From my experience, the blades oxidize unevenly, with those parts that are inside the metallic armatures of the scabbard oxidizing much more than the rest, because that's where most of the micro-condensation takes place. Usually, most of the oxidation is at the tip of the blade, on the part that is inside the chape.

I also find strange the level of oxidation and the aspect of it on the scabbard. I have many pieces with koftgari, in various conditions but usually the oxidation is not so uniform and doesn't have this brownish aspect.

Last but not least, for most scabbards, the parts that get damaged first are those covered in textile or leather, while the metallic armatures tend to remain in better condition. Here I see the opposite: the metallic armatures are in poor, corroded condition, while the mid-section leather part is in significantly better condition. If the metallic parts were exposed to such harsh conditions to get so heavily corroded, then I would expect the leather to show some matching degradation and be in much worse condition.

So, while I cannot express a definitive conclusion, I believe there are some points that may raise some suspicion.

As a fellow member would say: "my antennae are twitching."

mahratt · 9th July 2021, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Thank you Mahratt for these better pictures!

You raise an interesting issue.

The corrosion on the blade appears to be genuine to my eyes.

However, I find it very strange that it is so evenly spread across the whole blade. From my experience, the blades oxidize unevenly, with those parts that are inside the metallic armatures of the scabbard oxidizing much more than the rest, because that's where most of the micro-condensation takes place. Usually, most of the oxidation is at the tip of the blade, on the part that is inside the chape.

I also find strange the level of oxidation and the aspect of it on the scabbard. I have many pieces with koftgari, in various conditions but usually the oxidation is not so uniform and doesn't have this brownish aspect.

Last but not least, for most scabbards, the parts that get damaged first are those covered in textile or leather, while the metallic armatures tend to remain in better condition. Here I see the opposite: the metallic armatures are in poor, corroded condition, while the mid-section leather part is in significantly better condition. If the metallic parts were exposed to such harsh conditions to get so heavily corroded, then I would expect the leather to show some matching degradation and be in much worse condition.

So, while I cannot express a definitive conclusion, I believe there are some points that may raise some suspicion.

As a fellow member would say: "my antennae are twitching."

Yes, Marius. And don't forget that the horn on hilt is in perfect condition. In this case, usually if the item has served 150-200 years, as written by the seller, the handle from horn looks a little different

Ian · 10th July 2021, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

I apologize in advance. What I post in this comment is just an opinion. So everyone can continue to think as they want

Two replies from the Russian forum, where I posted photos of the "unique quadarra":

1) All metal parts including the blade are aged with acid. You will never find a struck mark of same shape on original item.

2) On a note to "expert": if you see such incomprehensible garbage, then feel free to write "Syria", there they will make "any whim for his money" for the buyer

Mahratt,

The demonstration of a second example of this type of sword (as shown by "Interested Party") would seem to negate both arguments from the Russian forum that you quoted. Both the fullers and what appears to be a struck mark on this second example indicates that the subject of this thread is not a unique example made to order in Syria. We seem to be seeing a very unusual style based on an Ottoman blade.

As far as acid etching is concerned, the blade and scabbard are too rusted to make such an assessment IMHO.

ariel · 10th July 2021, 01:19 AM

Interested Party,
Thanks for finding the old kindjal pics.
The complicated system of fullers is very similar to my example. In turn, as I have noted earlier, there is an uncanny resemblance to the Trabzon Surmene daggers.
Very interesting. Quite likely, that the coins under the bosses are Iranian.

Do my eyes fool me, or is there a yataghan-ish curving of the blade?

What especially puzzled me ( pleasantly) was Arsendaddy’s aside that he considered this type of daggers to be the Caucasian ( Trabzon????? - my addition) progenitor of the Iranian qaddara. I have mentioned before Kirill Rivkin’s opinion that Georgian singe-edged kindjals migrated to Azerbaidjan and from there to Iran, and Vakhtang Kiziria’s version of Kakhetian Sabarkali fulfilling the same role.
These three Caucasian aficionados seem to tell the same story, but from different angles. If their common story has legs, mine may be quite older than the traditional “ 19th century”.
Waiting for Kwiatek.

mahratt · 10th July 2021, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Mahratt,

The demonstration of a second example of this type of sword (as shown by "Interested Party") would seem to negate both arguments from the Russian forum that you quoted. Both the fullers and what appears to be a struck mark on this second example indicates that the subject of this thread is not a unique example made to order in Syria. We seem to be seeing a very unusual style based on an Ottoman blade.

As far as acid etching is concerned, the blade and scabbard are too rusted to make such an assessment IMHO.

Ian, I did not write (not to upset our dear Ariel) that serious collectors of Oriental arms have long known that all lots from this seller were made in recent times. But, as I wrote earlier, everyone has the right to believe the version the seller provided.
Unfortunately, Ariel represents that Russia is still in the 1990s.

P.S. My opinion is that the days when you could buy a unique item for "2 cents" on marketplaces like e-bay are long gone. Now everyone has the internet and any seller knows for sure if his item is unique or not. And also knows that a unique item cannot be cheap.

9th July 2021, 06:00 AM	#7
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	I apologize in advance. What I post in this comment is just an opinion. So everyone can continue to think as they want Two replies from the Russian forum, where I posted photos of the "unique quadarra": 1) All metal parts including the blade are aged with acid. You will never find a struck mark of same shape on original item. 2) On a note to "expert": if you see such incomprehensible garbage, then feel free to write "Syria", there they will make "any whim for his money" for the buyer Attached Images

10th July 2021, 01:19 AM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Interested Party, Thanks for finding the old kindjal pics. The complicated system of fullers is very similar to my example. In turn, as I have noted earlier, there is an uncanny resemblance to the Trabzon Surmene daggers. Very interesting. Quite likely, that the coins under the bosses are Iranian. Do my eyes fool me, or is there a yataghan-ish curving of the blade? What especially puzzled me ( pleasantly) was Arsendaddy’s aside that he considered this type of daggers to be the Caucasian ( Trabzon????? - my addition) progenitor of the Iranian qaddara. I have mentioned before Kirill Rivkin’s opinion that Georgian singe-edged kindjals migrated to Azerbaidjan and from there to Iran, and Vakhtang Kiziria’s version of Kakhetian Sabarkali fulfilling the same role. These three Caucasian aficionados seem to tell the same story, but from different angles. If their common story has legs, mine may be quite older than the traditional “ 19th century”. Waiting for Kwiatek. Last edited by ariel; 10th July 2021 at 01:46 AM.

8th July 2021, 04:05 PM	#1
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,882	Hmmm.... now that you are saying.... The photos are very poor quality but I find surprising the fairly pristine condition of the cutting edge, relative to the koftgari area. Usually, the proximity of the cutting edge and mostly the tip of the blade (that is usually inside the chape) are the most affected by pitting. I also find interesting how even the rust is on the koftgari areas. But I am known to be on the paranoid side...

8th July 2021, 04:26 PM	#2
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I think it's fine, look at the metal parts of the hilt, they look similar and rusted as well. Just bad photos... Nice stuff BTW

8th July 2021, 07:54 PM	#4
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 831	I often used ''gentle'' acids like regular coke for remove rust and keep a nice patina , the koftgari isn't damaged. a solution with diluted ferric chlorid works too. vinegar is ok but, as mentioned, often the steel turns dull... on the other side of the PH scale, baking soda is ok to turn rust over and preserve silver or golden koftgari ,only problem: sometimes it cleans and shine too much. and all patina is lost... PS: I do that when the kofgari is no more visible and covered by rust, In your case,I find too its ok so just a little oil/''magic''WD40 will be good if you are afraid to lose some kofgari or aged patina...

8th July 2021, 11:32 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Marius, I did not go into explanations of the obvious: the edge was cleaned. There was no koftgari there and there were no technical limitations As I mentioned earlier, I have used fine sandpaper on the fullers,

8th July 2021, 11:38 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Francantolin, I am intrigued by your techniques of coke and soda. Can you elaborate?

9th July 2021, 08:38 AM	#8
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,882	Thank you Mahratt for these better pictures! You raise an interesting issue. The corrosion on the blade appears to be genuine to my eyes. However, I find it very strange that it is so evenly spread across the whole blade. From my experience, the blades oxidize unevenly, with those parts that are inside the metallic armatures of the scabbard oxidizing much more than the rest, because that's where most of the micro-condensation takes place. Usually, most of the oxidation is at the tip of the blade, on the part that is inside the chape. I also find strange the level of oxidation and the aspect of it on the scabbard. I have many pieces with koftgari, in various conditions but usually the oxidation is not so uniform and doesn't have this brownish aspect. Last but not least, for most scabbards, the parts that get damaged first are those covered in textile or leather, while the metallic armatures tend to remain in better condition. Here I see the opposite: the metallic armatures are in poor, corroded condition, while the mid-section leather part is in significantly better condition. If the metallic parts were exposed to such harsh conditions to get so heavily corroded, then I would expect the leather to show some matching degradation and be in much worse condition. So, while I cannot express a definitive conclusion, I believe there are some points that may raise some suspicion. As a fellow member would say: "my antennae are twitching."