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Old 7th June 2018, 03:50 AM   #1
Anthony G.
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Default Seeking advice on Balinese keris hulu

Hi friends

Can you advise me about the circled part on the hulu. Is there any meaning to it?

And in addition, what is your review about this keris in term of age and quality of the blade and as a whole?

Thank you.
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Old 7th June 2018, 10:54 AM   #2
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Hello Anthony,
This is a good, old (19th century?) and classical blade from Bali or more probably Lombok with an old gerantiman style hilt. The tail of the ganja has been apparently damaged/ cut. I will let others comment on the spiral motif on top of the hilt.
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Old 7th June 2018, 01:43 PM   #3
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It is not the answer to your question but I have handled this Gerantim handle and I am 100% sure it is not old but good recent craftsmanship.
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Old 7th June 2018, 02:22 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul B.
It is not the answer to your question but I have handled this Gerantim handle and I am 100% sure it is not old but good recent craftsmanship.


Hi Paul and rest, thanks for the advice.

Aside to Paul, could you confirm with me on one thing. Good recent craftsmanship means the hilt only and not the blade. right?
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Old 7th June 2018, 04:06 PM   #5
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IIRC, and often I don't.
This is a representation of a sprout or tendril vegetable in nature.
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Old 7th June 2018, 04:31 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
IIRC, and often I don't.
This is a representation of a sprout or tendril vegetable in nature.

That's my understanding as well.
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Old 7th June 2018, 04:38 PM   #7
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Here a thread where two makers of this specific hilt form, father and son, are mentioned. This one could be the work of father.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...hlight=gerantim

Regarding the feature on top of the hilt, Jasper and Mas Pirngadie calls it Liking Pakoe (Paku) and describes it as a "monsterlike" figurine of an animal with tail rolled up. At that time (before 1930) they already couldn't find out the meaning of it and wrote - pepajasan, just an adornment, without symbol value. Jensen compares it with a figure called quadruped of Indra from Majapahit period.

On newer Gerantim (like this one) this feature is even more simplified, so perhaps the meaning is completely lost.

The blade... just like a Karangasem royal Keris stripped of its Kinatah
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Old 7th June 2018, 04:42 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony G.
Good recent craftsmanship means the hilt only and not the blade. right?

I believe it does Anthony. This appears to be a decent Bali blade from the late 19th C, though as Jean has pointed it, it does have some damage issues, not just to the tail of the gonjo, but also along the edges, especially just above the gandik.
I cannot speak to the age of the hilt and have not had the benefit to handle the piece like Paul has, but would it matter to you if this hilt were not antique? It is traditionally made, nicely crafted and appears to be made of precious metal. Dress is routinely updated within keris-bearing societies. I don't believe age would add much value to this hilt IMHO.
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Old 7th June 2018, 05:52 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
I cannot speak to the age of the hilt and have not had the benefit to handle the piece like Paul has, but would it matter to you if this hilt were not antique? It is traditionally made, nicely crafted and appears to be made of precious metal. Dress is routinely updated within keris-bearing societies. I don't believe age would add much value to this hilt IMHO.


The hilt may be recent indeed although the top part is dented (fragile silver sheet?) and the selut is partly damaged and does not look recent (replaced?). What matters is that the core with finely woven silver strips looks in excellent condition.
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Old 7th June 2018, 06:23 PM   #10
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I've also never heard of any definitive explanation for the symbolism of the sprouting figure. As mentioned before, it may have well been lost in time.

That being said, there's a lot of conjecture as to what it represents, but nothing more than conjecture.
Perhaps it's analogous to tunggak semi in Javanese jejeran, but of course this is just a musing of mine with no supporting evidence whatsoever.
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Old 7th June 2018, 06:34 PM   #11
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Actually besides the quite simplified Liking Pakoe figurine this hilt seems to lack also the petals on the domed base of this figurine.

(Attached a hilt made before 1894, the figurine lost.)

That's the problem with the updated dress - the meaning of features gets lost, they increasingly are seen as just an ornament, and finally disappear.

And that is exactly why older dress is valuable. It still contains traces, if perhaps only for ethnologists.

Besides that also the material of the hilt speaks for a more recent date of manufacture. Even around 1930 Jasper and Mas Pirngadie mention gold and ivory as materials for the hilt forms reserved for Trivangsa (and wood for Sudra). They doesn't mention silver as Balinese hilt material at all - anyway not the best choice of material for touching with bare hands, especially in tropic climate.
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Old 8th June 2018, 12:48 AM   #12
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I do not know with certainty the symbolic intent of this curl on the top of the hilt, however, during the 1980's I was given similar explanations of it by two people, one a Brahmin priest, the second a woman who in her community was highly regarded for her traditional knowledge.

According to the explanations I was given, this curl is to be understood as a sprout, the body of the hilt in this context is to be understood as a stump, or tree trunk, the pattern of the weaving echoes the poleng pattern of sacred cloth. The overall understanding is that of new, developing life and of protection.

There is a relationship between this grantim hilt form and the cenangan hilt form. In times past the grantim was reserved for wear by nobles (bangsawan), so people who were not recognised as nobles were denied the right to wear this hilt form, thus the cenangan form was developed, which is overall the same as the grantim form, but lacks the woven covering of the hilt body, having only bare wood as its "stump". Cenangan hilts are often adorned with metal overlay and other enhancements, but they do not have the poleng overlay. The metal overlay of the cenangan usually incorporates protective symbolism that fills the gap left by the absence of the poleng motif.

In fact there is some doubt that the grantim was available to all the Triwangsa, as the Triwangsa is comprised of the Brahmin, K'satriya and Wesia, but the Wesia are traders, and in reality sit lower than the Brahmin and K'satriya.

The hierarchical systems in Bali are not easy to understand, it is not simply a matter of caste (in fact the Dutch intensified the caste system) there are other ranking systems that can place a man or woman of relatively humble means above a recognised lord, dependent upon the context. I suggest a reading of "Secrets of Bali" --- Murni & Copeland for a good explanation of this. Thus a person of high standing in one context need not be materially wealthy.

It is incorrect to believe that older grantim were only found in gold, and only had a woven metal covering. Lalu Djelenga notes that silver and brass woven coverings do exist, but are rare, he was writing around 20 years ago. I have owned old grantim hilts in both silver and brass where the poleng pattern had been produced by embossing. The brass one had the appearance of age, and I had owned it for around 20 or 30 years, but the silver embossed one had previously been in the possession of the Badung Puri, and very probably dated from the late 19th century or early 20th century. The silver one had been fire-gilded.

As with much Javanese/Balinese symbolism, nothing is simple and straightforward. Symbolism in these cultures is often multi-symbolism, and the world view is dualistic, that is to say, it is seen in terms of opposites, and this is the symbolism of the poleng motif:- good/bad, day/night, mountain/sea, man/woman --- and so on. Nothing can ever be understood as a singularity, there must be balance.

In use, the poleng is wrapped around a number of things, but in the case of shrines and statues, only Durga is wrapped with the poleng, only a shrine dedicated to Durga is wrapped with the poleng. The function of the keris hilt can be understood to be protective, the protection being put in place to protect against the entry of an evil entity to the shrine that is the keris. Thus, if we understand the grantim in the context of a protective deity, then it can be understood as a symbolic representation of Durga.

When a man wears the poleng, the function of the cloth is protective.

If we understand the grantim as representative of Durga, and we recognise the symbolism of the poleng, then we immediately recognise the duality of Durga as both the Nurturing Mother and the Deity of Death, this in turn links Durga to Dewi Sri ( see Jordan), and then there is the Nyai Loro Kidul association, this especially applies in Bali where Durga is sometimes --- maybe often --- confused with Dewi Sri and Nyai Loro Kidul. This is perfectly understandable, as Dewi Durga was originally a goddess of vegetation, and as we all know, Dewi Sri is the goddess of rice and fertility --- and also the opposite, so once again duality.

Are little curls on the top of keris hilts simple ornamentation?

No, they are not, but they do require just a slight understanding of the culture and society that has produced them, in order to see them as they can be seen by people from that culture and society.

Bjorn has suggested an association between the Javanese tunggak semi hilt and the cenangan of Bali. The idea is similar, and actually quite perceptive, but the physical representation must be viewed contextually:- the tunggak semi hilt in Jawa was the product of dividing the House of Mataram into Jogjakarta and Surakarta. Jogjakarta became the "new shoot on the old stump/branch" (ie, "tunggak semi"), and that name alone came to the hilt, in Bali we have a physical representation of an idea. In Bali there was no Dutch interference to divide royal houses, in fact, the whole societal system differed, so although the grantim can be viewed in a similar physical way to the tunggak semi, the interpretation of symbolism is different.
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Old 8th June 2018, 01:24 AM   #13
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Thank you Alan for presenting the complexity of the matter where simple, definitive answers cannot possibly live.
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Old 8th June 2018, 01:30 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav
The blade... just like a Karangasem royal Keris stripped of its Kinatah

Forgive me Gustav, if i have misinterpreted this comment, but it seems to be a reference to the two Balinese keris that Alan presented not too long ago. If i am not mistaken, your take on those blades was that they were not, could not, be old blades. Are you trying to imply with this quip that you also believe that Anthony's blade is a contemporary creation? If so i would be very interested in knowing what, exactly, you would base that assessment on.
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Old 8th June 2018, 01:39 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
I believe it does Anthony. This appears to be a decent Bali blade from the late 19th C, though as Jean has pointed it, it does have some damage issues, not just to the tail of the gonjo, but also along the edges, especially just above the gandik.
I cannot speak to the age of the hilt and have not had the benefit to handle the piece like Paul has, but would it matter to you if this hilt were not antique? It is traditionally made, nicely crafted and appears to be made of precious metal. Dress is routinely updated within keris-bearing societies. I don't believe age would add much value to this hilt IMHO.


Hi David

Greeting.

I just need to know what I am collecting especially it is an important learning stage for me as a newbie, it does not matter if the hilt is antique as long it is a properly made according to the tradition.
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Old 8th June 2018, 01:40 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
I do not know with certainty the symbolic intent of this curl on the top of the hilt, however, during the 1980's I was given similar explanations of it by two people, one a Brahmin priest, the second a woman who in her community was highly regarded for her traditional knowledge.

According to the explanations I was given, this curl is to be understood as a sprout, the body of the hilt in this context is to be understood as a stump, or tree trunk, the pattern of the weaving echoes the poleng pattern of sacred cloth. The overall understanding is that of new, developing life and of protection.

There is a relationship between this grantim hilt form and the cenangan hilt form. In times past the grantim was reserved for wear by nobles (bangsawan), so people who were not recognised as nobles were denied the right to wear this hilt form, thus the cenangan form was developed, which is overall the same as the grantim form, but lacks the woven covering of the hilt body, having only bare wood as its "stump". Cenangan hilts are often adorned with metal overlay and other enhancements, but they do not have the poleng overlay. The metal overlay of the cenangan usually incorporates protective symbolism that fills the gap left by the absence of the poleng motif.

In fact there is some doubt that the grantim was available to all the Triwangsa, as the Triwangsa is comprised of the Brahmin, K'satriya and Wesia, but the Wesia are traders, and in reality sit lower than the Brahmin and K'satriya.

The hierarchical systems in Bali are not easy to understand, it is not simply a matter of caste (in fact the Dutch intensified the caste system) there are other ranking systems that can place a man or woman of relatively humble means above a recognised lord, dependent upon the context. I suggest a reading of "Secrets of Bali" --- Murni & Copeland for a good explanation of this. Thus a person of high standing in one context need not be materially wealthy.

It is incorrect to believe that older grantim were only found in gold, and only had a woven metal covering. Lalu Djelenga notes that silver and brass woven coverings do exist, but are rare, he was writing around 20 years ago. I have owned old grantim hilts in both silver and brass where the poleng pattern had been produced by embossing. The brass one had the appearance of age, and I had owned it for around 20 or 30 years, but the silver embossed one had previously been in the possession of the Badung Puri, and very probably dated from the late 19th century or early 20th century. The silver one had been fire-gilded.

As with much Javanese/Balinese symbolism, nothing is simple and straightforward. Symbolism in these cultures is often multi-symbolism, and the world view is dualistic, that is to say, it is seen in terms of opposites, and this is the symbolism of the poleng motif:- good/bad, day/night, mountain/sea, man/woman --- and so on. Nothing can ever be understood as a singularity, there must be balance.

In use, the poleng is wrapped around a number of things, but in the case of shrines and statues, only Durga is wrapped with the poleng, only a shrine dedicated to Durga is wrapped with the poleng. The function of the keris hilt can be understood to be protective, the protection being put in place to protect against the entry of an evil entity to the shrine that is the keris. Thus, if we understand the grantim in the context of a protective deity, then it can be understood as a symbolic representation of Durga.

When a man wears the poleng, the function of the cloth is protective.

If we understand the grantim as representative of Durga, and we recognise the symbolism of the poleng, then we immediately recognise the duality of Durga as both the Nurturing Mother and the Deity of Death, this in turn links Durga to Dewi Sri ( see Jordan), and then there is the Nyai Loro Kidul association, this especially applies in Bali where Durga is sometimes --- maybe often --- confused with Dewi Sri and Nyai Loro Kidul. This is perfectly understandable, as Dewi Durga was originally a goddess of vegetation, and as we all know, Dewi Sri is the goddess of rice and fertility --- and also the opposite, so once again duality.

Are little curls on the top of keris hilts simple ornamentation?

No, they are not, but they do require just a slight understanding of the culture and society that has produced them, in order to see them as they can be seen by people from that culture and society.

Bjorn has suggested an association between the Javanese tunggak semi hilt and the cenangan of Bali. The idea is similar, and actually quite perceptive, but the physical representation must be viewed contextually:- the tunggak semi hilt in Jawa was the product of dividing the House of Mataram into Jogjakarta and Surakarta. Jogjakarta became the "new shoot on the old stump/branch" (ie, "tunggak semi"), and that name alone came to the hilt, in Bali we have a physical representation of an idea. In Bali there was no Dutch interference to divide royal houses, in fact, the whole societal system differed, so although the grantim can be viewed in a similar physical way to the tunggak semi, the interpretation of symbolism is different.



thank you very much, Alan

Dear all, thank you for sharing and participating. And this topic has been a fruitful and enjoyable discussion. Cheers

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Old 8th June 2018, 02:51 AM   #17
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Anthony, just one last thing:-

what is the number and colour of the stones, and what order are they in?
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Old 8th June 2018, 06:25 AM   #18
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Dear all

I just went to the custom today and can only collect back the hilt. It seems that the hilt is in good condition compare to the dealer photos which is misleading. Please see my photo. It is thin sheet of silver covering the internal (wood). No dent whatsoever. Any idea what is the price for this hilt in the market? Just asking.

As for the blade, it requires additional level of police clearance due to the length. I have seen it thou.

-The gonjo 'modification' is quite well done and smooth but not sure why it was modified. Could it be that it was damaged before and repaired?

I will post more photo of the blade if the authority return back to me. Finger cross :P
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Old 8th June 2018, 06:34 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Anthony, just one last thing:-

what is the number and colour of the stones, and what order are they in?


Hi

My eye has some issue. But I tried to answer you.

As no video upload is possible in this portal, I took photo.
There are a total of 8 stones. Please find attached the photo.
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Old 8th June 2018, 07:29 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Forgive me Gustav, if i have misinterpreted this comment, but it seems to be a reference to the two Balinese keris that Alan presented not too long ago. If i am not mistaken, your take on those blades was that they were not, could not, be old blades. Are you trying to imply with this quip that you also believe that Anthony's blade is a contemporary creation? If so i would be very interested in knowing what, exactly, you would base that assessment on.


David, please read read my post carefully. I never have said, those blades from thread "Bling" wouldn't or couldn't be old.

In your comment above you even imply, I would have said, they were contemporary creation. That is more then a little bit far-fetched.

Not so long ago Alan did write a post about the precision in the use of language. Perhaps there should be one also about precision in reading a text.

...

Regarding Lalu Djelenga's mentioning of silver and brass Gerantim 20 or 30 years ago - Lalu Djelenga was Sasak and Sasak are Muslim. I would not wonder they appeared there even earlier, as Sasak society wasn't a rich one. What interests me is Bali, before 1928 and if possible, before 1908.

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Old 8th June 2018, 09:00 AM   #21
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Yes Gustav, you may well be correct in that brass and silver grantim did exist in Lombok, but did not exist in Bali. Djelengga was of course referring to the long past, as he notes that at the time he was writing the craftsmen who could make the woven grantim hilts were already "punah", that is gone, wiped out, destroyed utterly. In other words at the time Lalu Djelengga wrote his text there was no production of these hilts. His work was published in 2000, I think, but I'm not exactly sure when it was written, maybe 1980's or early 1990's?

In any case, he was writing about the long past.

Here is a pic of a brass grantim that I have had for about 60 years, it belongs to a keris that I am not prepared to put on exhibition in an online forum, however, this keris is undeniably Balinese, and in my estimation dates from at least the 19th century. It has an ivory gambar, and the appearance of that ivory would suggest a much earlier date than even the 1800's. I bought this keris from a Dutchman who fled to Australia prior to the Japanese occupation of the Dutch East Indies during WWII.

However, having said that, it is absolutely impossible for me to claim that I am certain that its geographic point of origin was Bali rather than Lombok. Bali had a long history of colonisation of Lombok, during this period --- which ended comparatively recently, 1890's --- there was constant movement back and forth between Bali and Lombok, and a craftsman working in Bali one month could be working in Lombok the next. It is impossible to know with any degree of certainty where cultural items of Balinese style were actually made --- unless one was there watching the manufacture. To all intents and purposes there can be no distinction between Balinese in Bali and Balinese in colonised Lombok. In fact, the language used in West Lombok today is mostly Balinese.

But there is one undeniable fact:- not all the people who were permitted to wear a grantim hilt were mega rich : not all could afford gold. The social situation in Bali is this:- a man who performs common labour could be classifiable as a noble, and in some situations could be ranked at a very high status. The Balinese hierarchical systems are so complex that not many Balinese people understand the relationships correctly. I certainly do not, all I can do is observe the results.

As an aside, one of my regular drivers in Ubud is in fact a prince, he lives a pretty ordinary existence, except when he needs to appear at some formal event, when he looks every inch a prince, and acts like one. It has always been thus.

There is no doubt at all in my mind that lower value materials were used in the production of grantim hilts by Balinese people in the distant past. But I cannot prove this, it is simply a logical belief.
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Old 8th June 2018, 10:00 AM   #22
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Here is another brass grantim. The dealer I bought this from said it is "an old piece from Lombok". Just to share.
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Old 8th June 2018, 12:10 PM   #23
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Thank you Anthony.

In the photo the stones, or more correctly "pastes" --- material is unimportant --- appear to be red and green, is this correct?

There is a total of 8 stones. Is this correct?

I am uncertain of the arrangement of the stones, could you please clarify, for example:- RRGGRRGG, OR WHAT?

The silver poleng covering is embossed, not woven, is this correct?

Thank you.
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Old 8th June 2018, 02:17 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav
David, please read read my post carefully. I never have said, those blades from thread "Bling" wouldn't or couldn't be old.

In your comment above you even imply, I would have said, they were contemporary creation. That is more then a little bit far-fetched.

Not so long ago Alan did write a post about the precision in the use of language. Perhaps there should be one also about precision in reading a text.

Well Gustav, i did begin my post with "forgive me if i have misinterpreted". Apparently i have. I was working from memory and did not go back to check that past thread. My bad. The memory is, after all, the first thing to go, isn't it? What you actually stated in the "Bling" thread was that those keris couldn't possiblly be from 18th century as presented.
So then you do agree that Anthony's blade is probably from the end of the 19th century? Perhaps if you had simply stated that instead of trying to make a sarcastic swipe at a past thread we would all have had clearer communication all around and not would need to be clarifying our comments here to begin with.
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Old 8th June 2018, 02:26 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
The silver poleng covering is embossed, not woven, is this correct?

I don't know Alan. If you look closely at the first close up that Anthony provided to show the stones it looks woven to me.
I assume from your comments that there could be some significance to the order of the colored paste arrangements. You are probably waiting for Anthony's response of the order, but could you speak more to that? Thanks!
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Old 8th June 2018, 02:36 PM   #26
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Hello Alan,

Quote:
There is a total of 8 stones.

Yup, see Anthony's post #19.


Quote:
I am uncertain of the arrangement of the stones, could you please clarify, for example:- RRGGRRGG, OR WHAT?

The pics show a single red and 3 adjacent reds: RGGRRRGG.


Quote:
The silver poleng covering is embossed, not woven, is this correct?

Sure looks woven to me from the pics in post #19: apparently "only" 2 transverse wires held by each woven section of the thin longitudinal strips...

Regards,
Kai
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Old 8th June 2018, 02:52 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul de Souza
Here is another brass grantim. The dealer I bought this from said it is "an old piece from Lombok". Just to share.

Paul, i have this hilt's exact twin. So exact that it would seem that these were perhaps casts and probably came out of the same workshop.
We had a discussion some time ago about what folks meant when they used the term "old". Dealers in general probably have a different definition most of the time than the average collector. I have always assumed that a hilt like this is at least post-WWII and probably a little newer than that. Possibly vintage would be a suitable term. Certainly not new. Here is a quick shot of mine for comparison.

Edit: Now that we have both our hilts up i do notice some small differences in the motifs around the top of the hilt, so perhaps not cast after all. The similarities are still very close and lead me to believe they came out of the same workshop around the same time.
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Old 8th June 2018, 04:27 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
Hello Alan,


Yup, see Anthony's post #19.



The pics show a single red and 3 adjacent reds: RGGRRRGG.



Sure looks woven to me from the pics in post #19: apparently "only" 2 transverse wires held by each woven section of the thin longitudinal strips...

Regards,
Kai


Hi Alan

Kai is correct. 8 stones, RGGRRRGG (Red/Green) and it looks woven alrite. It is very fine when I touches it. Does not looks it is craved etc.
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Old 8th June 2018, 11:01 PM   #29
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Thank you Anthony and Kai.

My questions were put because I needed to confirm, not because I could not see what we all can see.

Anthony wrote:- "--- It is thin sheet of silver ---". He did not specify that it was a woven sheet of silver. Yes, it certainly looks woven, but there is a very distinct difference between a "sheet of silver", and a "woven sheet of silver". If not woven, then it would be embossed, and then we need to think about age. If woven, well, it looks a bit knocked around, so is it a comparatively recent production out of Lombok, or not?

Questions that it seems to me could only be adequately answered by a person who was totally familiar with the work of the recent Lombok makers, and who could examine this hilt under magnification.

But at least we now know positively that the silver is woven, we are not assuming it is.

In respect of the stones.
In my opinion this is not a hilt that has been made in accordance with correct Balinese cultural requirements, rather it has been made as an ornament, not intended for dress wear by a Balinese person.

If we care to play the Sasak card and plead that it is for use by a Muslim, well, maybe so, but then we need to look at the entire keris, and that keris no longer is able to be appraised as Balinese, rather, it is Lombok but with a Balinese blade and wrongko. The hilt becomes an anomaly, something that is not unusual in keris of whatever style that have come from Lombok.

The number of stones is 8.

Balinese religion and belief is heavily influenced by numerology, numbers should not be haphazard, they should be carefully selected. The really important numbers are 3 5 7 9 11, the numbers of the major deities, which in turn refer to the number of roofs on a meru, and number of roofs to be used in a cremation tower, which accords with a person's hierarchical status in society.

Probably the most important single number is three, in Bali everything seems to come in threes, so if the stones on the hilt had been assembled in sets of three, I would be thinking that, well, maybe this is Balinese, maybe there was some cultural consideration in its making, but what we have is this:-

RGGRRRGG

OK, lets rearrange this:- RRR GGRGG

so now we have a set of three and a mixed set of five

intentional? I doubt it, but 3 + 5 = 8

8 is the number that symbolises the division of deities and space into their component parts, it is also the number that relates to the naga and to the elephant, and as the elephant, thus to Ganesha.

is the number 8 intentional in this hilt?

personally, I doubt it, I think we are just looking at coincidence.

WHY?

because the most usual, the most accepted, almost the expected colours for use in this sort of ornamentation are WHITE RED BLACK, which are representative of ISWARA BRAHMA WISNU, together the colours are mixed, so as a complete entity the three colours become mixed colours and can be interpreted to represent SIWA. If we see these colours we know we are looking at something that is correct. We have the number three, we have the expected colours. It is right.

But we can get variations that are also correct, green, which is actually the colour for Sangkara can be a substitute, but can be interpreted as a different colour, white can be interpreted as mixed, and thus might refer to Siwa, rather than Iswara.

We can get partial assemblages, as in the hilt Gustav has shown where we have alternating WHITE RED = Iswara (or Siwa) + Brahma

so when we appraise this sort of thing we need to think in Balinese terms of colour symbolism and numerical symbolism :- is something intentional, is there a meaning, or is it just a pleasing assemblage?

So, to return to the hilt under discussion.

We have :- 8 , 3 , 5 , red , green .

This is the point at which we come to opinion rather than fact, opinion is based upon experience.

In my opinion the numbers and colours in Anthony's hilt have no meaning in a Balinese cultural context, they have been used to create a pleasing appearance only. As such, I cannot accept this hilt as something for use in a Balinese cultural context. It has been made as an ornament, or for use by a person who does not need or understand Balinese cultural necessity.

As I said:- opinion.

If anybody else has a different opinion they are entitled to it, and nobody need accept my opinion as graven in stone.
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Old 9th June 2018, 12:57 AM   #30
Paul de Souza
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What if all black...ie one colour?

Does blue and light purple come into the picture?
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