Please help witha European blade in a Japanese tachi mount

[pbleed]

Earlier this morning I prepared a response to the postings that were made to my inquiry about a European blade in a Japanese mount. I can assure you that I was witty and expressed deep gratitude to this community - - and then I managed to lose the file. Grrr!
The responses were very useful, tho and I want to acknowledge them. I will try to be more careful this time, but I assure you that my first draft was witty and pithy! I appreciate the reactions.
Jim’s response was – as usual - expert and useful. It was kind of in line with what I was thinking, but I have never had much contact with the 1796 British sabers and the ones I remember looking at all have those darn langets that hide the fullers, making it hard to know what they actually look like.
Bryce’s comments, of course, were comforting in that regard.
And I agree with David’s “twitchiness” about this blade. I am not ready to sell this sword, but I would like to present it in the collectors’ literature and I sure don’t want to publish a “fake.” We have all seen reworks and modifications, but I do NOT think that this is something that Bubba whipped up in his garage. I think it is “Japanese work.”
1. To be sure, this sword does NOT reflect the highest level of Japanese artistry. That is to be seen in the wonderful blade in the Leeds collection that Geraint reminded me of.
https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ect-54908.html
That sword shows us, however, that the Japanese were willing to treat foreign blades.
2. In addition to the overall “look”, two aspects of this tachi seem clearly “Japanese” to me. I think the polish really looks like a Japanese treatment, especially with the addition of a false “hamon.” I am also convinced that the clouds with dragon embellishments on the scabbard is ‘Japanese.’
3. There was, as well, a great fad in Japan during the late middle Edo period when wealthy fops like to get dressed up in foreign gear. I think this is the kind of thing that a wealthy guy could enjoy wearing when he was “on the town.”
Thanks for your help!
Peter

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you very much Peter for the kind words.
I felt pretty strongly about this being a British M1796 blade, and after many years of study and handling of them, I have learned of the considerable cases of variation due to at first, the fact that the blade making industry was in its first stages. This led invariably to cases of somewhat subtle variation, then as the form continued (as I mentioned in India mostly) well through the 19th c. of course even more variation was present but basically the same type fuller.

I know of your extensive background in Japan, so I would not presume to advance too heavily into the dynamics of the 19th c. and the westernization of the country in the late Edo period into the Meiji.
In what led to the Satsuma Rebellion, and the abolishing of the Samurai, thus presenting the opportunity for all men to wear a sword (as you suggest), this may well be an example of an ersatz weapon made from a repurposed British blade.

Other earlier contact with the west had produced the western fascination with Oriental styling and motif. This became prevalent in early to mid 18th century smallswords and court swords with Chinese motif known as Tonquinese and Chinoiserie. Mostly this of course had to do with the Dutch and English East India Companies in Peking and Tonkin (Vietnam), however though technically closed, there was activity into Japan.
The styling on this scabbard reminds me of some of the motif on these earlier swords decorated in Europe in this manner.

While obviously this sword does not reflect the high artistry of the long tradition of Japanese sword makers, it does suggest someone desiring a sword in the known manner put together with the methods of that work notably imitated.
Certainly this seems to plausibly be a British blade which has come into the Japanese sphere in the third quarter of 19thc.to turn of century during these times of change, and well worthy of publication.

All very best,
Jim

[Philip]

Before we get further along into the weeds, could you please post some images of the sword completely disassembled -- hilt off, showing the entirety of the tang, and the pommel and ferrule taken off the grip to show the jointing on the respective components?

I have in my reference library an article on a European blade mounted as a long wakizashi in a Danish museum, and mention of similar blade converted into a tanto now in the RAM, but let's see the "innards" of the subject of this thread before making any additional inquiry.

[Bryce]

G'day Peter,
As well as what the unmounted blade looks like, the sori measurement would also be useful. I measured what the sori of a typical 1796 LC sabre would be if cut down to 71.5cm and it is about 24mm. It looks to me like your blade is less curved than a 1796. Below are some photos showing the relevant parts of an average 1796. As Jim has mentioned there was a degree of variation between examples, but I don't think your's is a British 1796 or a German blucher. The fuller of your blade seems a little rough for a European sword of this period.
Cheers,
Bryce

[pbleed]

I remain grateful for the help and interest of this community. The growth of expert communities within – and on – internet communities truly has changed the rate and quality of understanding in collectors’ communities.
The discussion of potential candidates for the original blade that found its way into these mounts has been interesting. The British Model of 1796 would probably be how to bet. But anything could have found its way to an odd corner of early 19th century Japan - so I remain an agnostic or at least uncertain. There are those German Bluchers. And weren’t there early 19th century Dutch blades with wide fullers? The Dutch were still getting into Japan – legally – at that time.
Philip says that he will make sense of all this if I supply views of the disassembled sword. This sword has what the Japanese call a “Dashi-zame” or bare ray-skin. That means the kashira (the pommel) is fixed. I have removed the TSUBA to show the tang. It is abused, but note (!) that the washers (the seppa) were NOT recycled fittings from another Japanese style blade. They are NEW for this sword.
And to reveal a secret that I was not ready to share, in the attached picture I slipped the band in the middle of the handle back. It was loose enough to make that easy, but look what it covered – a Cross. That makes it tempting to speculate that the carrier of this sword was either a Christian or an ally of one of the southern leaders who had lined with Catholic missionaries. Or maybe he was just flashing a bunch of exotic symbols.
In any case this sword makes sense as something from the early to mid 19th Century. It was NOT something that would have been ginned up for the warfare that broke out AFTER the Meiji Restoration.

[Philip]

This somewhat earlier example of what we're discussing has been published thanks to Per Terje Norheim in "A Euro-Japanese Sword in the National Museum in Copenhagen", Vaabenhistorisker Aarboger Vol. XVI (1970), pp 163-73. This most unusual saber (inv. no. Ab.56NMK) , ex-King Frederik VII Collection, was acquired by the Museum in 1864, its previous history is unknown.

The 79.3 cm blade dates from the second half of the 17th cent., probably Solingen or Maastricht manufacture, with etched figures of horsemen further embellished with (badly spelled) Latin inscriptions in a style seen on any number of military swords of the era from northern and eastern Europe. It is fullered the entire length and has a spear-tip profile with back-edge at the point. From the texture of the steel in the photograph, the tang appears to have been neatly lengthened with an extension probably at the time of remounting, with a hole drilled in the proper position for a mekugi for hilt attachment in the Japanese fashion.

The blade has had a habaki fitted to it, and the workmanship overall is very competent throughout, although the tsuba is from another sword (tang aperture widened to accommodate this blade) and the fucci and kashira are not en suite. Mr Norheim notes in his article that the scabbard seems specifically made to fit the fairly wide blade.

Determining the period which lapsed between manufacture of blade and its installation on the present fittings is difficult. The amount of corrosion and wear (parts of the etching are effaced as a result) suggest that the blade wasn't brand new when it entered the Japanese sword-fitter's shop. The author also states that we can only speculate as to the reason the blade was so mounted.

[Philip]

The backstory on the piece cited in Peter's post #7...

In the same article referenced in my previous post is mentioned and illustrated this tanto. At the time of writing, it was in a British private collection and had been exhibited at a sword club show in that country. It's now in the Royal Armouries Museum, per the URL in post #7on this thread. The following remarks are based on Mr Norheim's description of it, in his comparison with the aforementioned sword.

This example is a bit more "high class" than the preceding; its mountings are much higher quality and bear the Matsuda (a daimyo family) crest.

The blade has also undergone a lot more in the way of "surgery" to reach its present state. It is a cut-down sword blade (analogous to European broadsword and riding-sword blades recycled into hooded cattars in Tanjore and other parts of South India). It was, according to the article, re-tanged in Japanese manner. Also re-tipped, re-tempered and polished à la japonnaise with parts of its original inscription remaining: " P.....SS Kejser [a Dutch rendition of Kaiser?] Anno... on one side, and on the other, " Me fecit Solingen 163 [3 or 5, numeral partially effaced].

[Philip]

Originally Posted by pbleed

2. In addition to the overall “look”, two aspects of this tachi seem clearly “Japanese” to me. I think the polish really looks like a Japanese treatment, especially with the addition of a false “hamon.” I am also convinced that the clouds with dragon embellishments on the scabbard is ‘Japanese.’
3. There was, as well, a great fad in Japan during the late middle Edo period when wealthy fops like to get dressed up in foreign gear. I think this is the kind of thing that a wealthy guy could enjoy wearing when he was “on the town.”
Thanks for your help!
Peter

Hi, Peter

Your comments have prompted me to look at this sword yet again, and to be frank, the more I see of it the less inclined I am to think that this is a Japanese conversion. Most apparent is the workmanship, or rather the lack therof. The preceding two examples from museum collections show how carefully the remounts were done in a Japanese context. Both those pieces have habakis , features which are hallmarks of Japanese blades. A good kessho polish would create a much more convincing hamon. (and wouldn't a Japanese style polish deserve a proper scabbard and a habaki in order to keep the finish from getting rubbed and scraped?).

Stylistically, I see your point about a Japanese aesthetic. But I've seen similar cloud and dragon motifs on Korean scabbards as well, and there is a Joseon-era sword in the Met that has loose-ring suspension fittings just like this one. I attach an image of a Korean byeolun-geom which has the au naturel rayskin without silk wrapping on the hilt; indeed, unwrapped grips are far more prevalent on Korean swords than on Japanese. Also, the deep rounded pommel on your sword is practically identical to that on a Korean ferrule/pommel set I used to have, and the boar eye motif on same mirrors that on your sword's guard, whose engraved floral deco are also quite similar to what I've seen on other Korean mountings.

The overall build quality of your sword is also more in keeping with that of the munition-grade arms made late in Korea's dynastic history.

Lastly, I have seen pics of swords on display in military museums in Korea, and semi-Western styles were adopted towards the end of the royal period in the 19th cent.

[Jim McDougall]

In keeping with Philips resoundingly astute suggestion of a Korean attribution here with this fascinating saber, I wanted to add some notes that I have come up with which might be salient in this consideration.

Until the arrival of Perry in 1854, Japan was indeed isolated as far as trade etc. with the world, however, the single inroad was the Dutch (former VOC) entrepot at Dejima Island (off coast of Nagasaki). Here trade with the west transpired into the East Indies networks.
This is a possible entry for a blade of German form of these '1796' types and as noted with Solingen or Dutch production, into possible Japanese context.

As Great Britain was of course quite colonially present in Hong Kong and other Chinese locations near mid century of course, there are possibilities for such British blades to have filtered into these same trade networks.
I would note here that I have seen (but no longer have images) of a complete M1796 British M1796 heavy cavalry sword with Chinese markings on the hilt, which was I believe among captured arms during the "Boxer Rebellion' (1900).

With this motif of clouds and dragons etc. on the scabbard, it seems that such decoration (in European favor with the Oriental styles I mentioned before used with these types of decoration) is seen on some Chinese weapons.

However, those styles of China seem like, as mentioned, may have made it into Korea as well.

I have a Korean 'peadao' (if I am correct on term) which as Philip has noted, would fall largely into the 'munitions' grade Korean arms made in mid 19thc possibly earlier. In this case, while the pommel cap and tsuba are quite simple, the grip is indeed wrapped and there is a habaki.
If I have understood correctly , after the Japanese take over in 1910, most Korean swords were destroyed.

I think there is a good case for this being a Korean use of this blade, whether British or German (I still feel it is British), and very likely c. mid century or slightly later. I think the cross on the reverse of the hilt is notably significant as well, considering the missionary circumstances in both China and Korea.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As Great Britain was of course quite colonially present in Hong Kong and other Chinese locations near mid century of course, there are possibilities for such British blades to have filtered into these same trade networks.
I would note here that I have seen (but no longer have images) of a complete M1796 British M1796 heavy cavalry sword with Chinese markings on the hilt, which was I believe among captured arms during the "Boxer Rebellion' (1900).

I have a Korean 'peadao' (if I am correct on term) which as Philip has noted, would fall largely into the 'munitions' grade Korean arms made in mid 19thc possibly earlier. In this case, while the pommel cap and tsuba are quite simple, the grip is indeed wrapped and there is a habaki.
If I have understood correctly , after the Japanese take over in 1910, most Korean swords were destroyed.

I think there is a good case for this being a Korean use of this blade, whether British or German (I still feel it is British), and very likely c. mid century or slightly later. I think the cross on the reverse of the hilt is notably significant as well, considering the missionary circumstances in both China and Korea.

A Chinese-marked M1796 is not such an oddity considering that the Qing Dynasty was constantly at war with rebel and insurgent forces from the mid-19th cent. until its downfall. Arms merchants made fortunes importing weapons for all sides. The Manchu rulers were so strapped that during the Taiping Rebellion (which was far more destructive than the Boxer), the government utilized an ad-hoc force, the Ever-Victorious Army, ultimately led by Gen. Charles "Chinese" Gordon who later won laurels in the Sudan. Later in the century, Winchester printed a Chinese edition of its catalog, and wealthy merchants in the Canton area equipped their home town militias with better rifles than the Peking garrisons had. Krupp and Mauser also made a ton of money selling cannon and rifles not only to the Qing but the Ottomans as well.

The Korean munition-grade saber in the images you posted is a hwando, and indeed, most of those are wrapped with cloth braid. But there were other types of Korean saber, such as the mun'gwando and the byeolun'geom which mostly had unwrapped grips, surfaced with either bare ray skin or polished hardwood. The Korean version of the habaki is readily distinguished in form from the Chinese tunkou. Also it is of simpler construction than the original Japanese and doesn't seal the mouth of the scabbard as efficiently.

I don't know what to make of the cruciform pattern of the rayskin pieces under the central grip fitting. If it were a clandestine symbol, it is not as subtle as one would expect. Rather roughly executed, though perhaps not too out of place considering the overall level of craftsmanship elsewhere.

As I recall, Japan relaxed its proscriptions on Christianity not long after its opening to the West. Catholic and Eastern Orthodox missions were founded in the late 19th cent., and American Protestants were active as well. (I once read an article in an encyclopedia that the two wheeled people-powered cab called a jinriksha (rickshaw) was invented by one of these enterprising Yankee preachers, considering that Japan had a shortage of horses.)

Be that as it may, the kingdom of Korea was extremely hostile towards foreigners and the Christian faith. Outsiders were not tolerated in the country, and beliefs outside the scope of Buddhism, the native shamanism, and the official Confucian socio-political orthodoxy were savagely persecuted. This paralleled similar hostility, combined with persecution and massacres, in China (1890s-1900), Japan (persecution and closure of country, 17th cent.), and Vietnam (mass martyrdom of Catholics during the early 19th cent.). Their rulers wanted to avoid a repeat of how the Portuguese humiliated the Sultan of Malacca, the Dutch and Spanish taking insular SE Asia, and Britain ultimately gulping up India. They were convinced by history that first come the merchants with their wares and the preachers with their religion, and after that the soldiers and cannon will finish the job, with their empires toppled or beholden to kings, queens, and a pope far away.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Some images of a Korean sword found online. The scabbard decoration appears similar to the sword in question.
Regards,
Norman.

[midelburgo]

There is an old thread about a Japanese sword with an old Dutch VOC blade.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ies+Company%29

Regards.