Persian Shamshir with Turkish Hilt

rand · 10th August 2007, 03:06 AM

http://persianshamshir.blogspot.com/

The above link is a Persian blade (shamshir), with a Turkish form of hilt.

The hilt has ivory grip scales that have yellowed and turned brown with age which leads me to believe they are African elephant ivory.

The cross guard is wootz with gold koftgari, the front and rear of the cross guard have a floral design, while the top and bottom have a striped design. There is some pitting in the central area of the guard.

The iron tand band also has gold koftgari work with a floral design.

This sword most likely rehilted in the 18th-19th century, there is no clear way to determine date unless the stripe pattern on then quillon was done for a short period that is identifyable.

The wootz blade is an unusually long 35" of the brilliant black damascus also known as khora khorassan.

Overall length of this sabre is 40".

An interesting feature to not is on the top spine of the blade, if you click on the image to enlarge it, you will clearly be able to see the oclussions which have been filled in with silver.

The lower cartouch on the blade says:

Amal-e Assadollah

(made by Assad Allah)

The upper cartouche says:

Bandeye Shah Velayat Abbas

Unsure of the English translation, know it refers to Shah Abbas, maybe (owned by Shah Abbas)? Will update the translation later.

Farsi translation courtesy of Manouchehr.

Shah Abbas was the most eminate ruler of Persian and reigned 1571-1629, its interesting to note that much of the cavalry that the Shah raised were Catholic Armeninan, Georgian and Circassian.

Interesting to note because it shows the basis for different styles and tastes in the ornamentaion of arms used by the Persian armies.

rand

Battara · 10th August 2007, 08:01 PM

The condition in general and koftgari in particular are in prestine condition!!

rand · 11th August 2007, 02:03 AM

There are two words for this swords....

Sah-Weet!!!

rand

rand · 11th August 2007, 08:00 AM

The upper cartouche says:

Bandeye Shah Velayat Abbas

"Unsure of the English translation, know it refers to Shah Abbas, maybe (owned by Shah Abbas)? Will update the translation later."

I now have an update on this inscription,

ABBAS BANDEH-I SHAH -I WILAYAT
(Abbas, the servant of the Lord of All)

rand

rand · 16th August 2007, 05:31 PM

loaded pics on web site.....

rand · 16th August 2007, 05:34 PM

More pics loaded to site

rand · 16th August 2007, 05:41 PM

In the bottom photo showing the spine of the blade, note the silver inlayed into the oclussion. Have only seen inlay into oclussions done on well made blades, usually with silver. Could it be a trend of a certain manufacturing area or a certain blade maker? Have had one example that had gold inlayed into the oclussion.

Also want to point out the pitting on cross guard.

rand

ALEX · 16th August 2007, 06:37 PM

Rand,
These are very nice swords. AssadAllah and Shah Abbas stamps are typical combination indicating a maker (most probably a School) and a ruling principal. The pitting on a crossguard is a nice indication of it's age

As for the line at the ridge of the blade: Yes, many wootz shamshirs have it!!!!! It indicates a last fold when the sword was made. My personal guess is that the maker's intention was to show that the blade was indeed folded (as to proove the process). I can see them saying to the buyer: "Look, it was folded 1000 times, and this is the last fold line"

Just like modern dealers say: "Look, it is hand made". An inlay could have been added for decoration purposes, and/or to protect the opening from dust, debree... and blood

Again, purely my guess.
Very nice collection. Do these swords have any scabbards?

rand · 16th August 2007, 07:24 PM

Hello Alex,

Neither of the two shamshirs pictured in the photo have a scabbard. However, the shamshir with the wider quillons had a sister sword, that on the pommel was "Keeper of the Gate" (Farsi?) inlaid in gold and it had a scabbard with two suspension rings mount with identical decoration, that sword hung in the Turkish manner at a 90 degree angle.

If I had some period quality suspension ring mounts would certainly have scabbards made to house these two swords.

rand

ward · 16th August 2007, 08:20 PM

Lot of good shamshir info in this articel ok to print out

http://users.rcn.com/wardc/scan2.tif

ward

rand · 16th August 2007, 11:32 PM

Hey Ward,

Thanks for posting Olivers article. Have a feeling that article has some age, believe Olivers opinion about when shamshir was developed would be earlier now. Was surprised he said beginning of 17th century. Know Oliver had a shamshir dated in the 1590's twenty five years ago. There are now shamshirs known with earlier art designs on blade suggesting at least an early 16th century date for the designs on blade. Also Zaki go's even further, saying the long, thicker wedge section, shallow curved blade devoped was 1500-1650.

rand

ward · 17th August 2007, 01:19 AM

I will email Mr. Pinchot and ask him.

rand · 17th August 2007, 02:30 AM

Tell Oliver I said hi.....

rand

ward · 17th August 2007, 08:03 PM

Reply--

Ward,

I do stand by the data contained in the article. Dating the origin of the shamshir is a difficult process which by its nature cannot be considered precise-- even dated examples show considerable variance, as noted in the frequency distribution applied to blades signed Assad Allah in Mayer's work on p. 7.
As for the shamshir you mentioned, the blade was very heavy, deeply curved and of wedge section with a relatively active pattern of silver-gray contrast. Its inscription was tiny and since the digits were worn, magnification from a number of angles was required in order to read it accurately. Ultimately it proved to be from the early 1620s.

O.P.

rand · 17th August 2007, 08:43 PM

Hi Ward,

Is Oliver referring to the shamshir with a double rung ladder pattern, armor piercing tip and stag horn grip scales?

Regarding blade shapes, we know there was a huge change in the culture surrounding the develoopement of the Ottoman Empire. The Sultans heavily supported the artisan community and the Arts flourished which includes the arms and armor arts as well.

If you regard the shamshir as developing in the early 17th century you leave a fairly good size void for known 16th century swords. We have examples of the single edges curved blade beginning in Eastern Europe 6-8th century as shown in a post by Artzi.

Seems to me that finding examples of shamshir with known time period of use will be about the only way to solve this mystery for sure and that has not surfaced yet.

It sort of gets back to the question on the kilij from the time of Mehmet II's sword, what is the progression of the kilij in the Ottoman Empire? There are some large voids there too.

By the way, I like Oliver and respect his opinion, just am thinking outside the box on this and lean toward a different opinion.

Wonder what the response to a shamshir blade with first half 16th century ornamentaion would be?

Am still looking at the photo's of your square barrel... thats just an amazing gun.

Will look for Zaki's shamshir progression and post his line drawing sword progression.

rand

10th August 2007, 03:06 AM	#1
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Persian Shamshir with Turkish Hilt http://persianshamshir.blogspot.com/ The above link is a Persian blade (shamshir), with a Turkish form of hilt. The hilt has ivory grip scales that have yellowed and turned brown with age which leads me to believe they are African elephant ivory. The cross guard is wootz with gold koftgari, the front and rear of the cross guard have a floral design, while the top and bottom have a striped design. There is some pitting in the central area of the guard. The iron tand band also has gold koftgari work with a floral design. This sword most likely rehilted in the 18th-19th century, there is no clear way to determine date unless the stripe pattern on then quillon was done for a short period that is identifyable. The wootz blade is an unusually long 35" of the brilliant black damascus also known as khora khorassan. Overall length of this sabre is 40". An interesting feature to not is on the top spine of the blade, if you click on the image to enlarge it, you will clearly be able to see the oclussions which have been filled in with silver. The lower cartouch on the blade says: Amal-e Assadollah (made by Assad Allah) The upper cartouche says: Bandeye Shah Velayat Abbas Unsure of the English translation, know it refers to Shah Abbas, maybe (owned by Shah Abbas)? Will update the translation later. Farsi translation courtesy of Manouchehr. Shah Abbas was the most eminate ruler of Persian and reigned 1571-1629, its interesting to note that much of the cavalry that the Shah raised were Catholic Armeninan, Georgian and Circassian. Interesting to note because it shows the basis for different styles and tastes in the ornamentaion of arms used by the Persian armies. rand

11th August 2007, 02:03 AM	#3
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Two Words for this sword There are two words for this swords.... Sah-Weet!!! rand

11th August 2007, 08:00 AM	#4
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Update on Inscription Translation The upper cartouche says: Bandeye Shah Velayat Abbas "Unsure of the English translation, know it refers to Shah Abbas, maybe (owned by Shah Abbas)? Will update the translation later." I now have an update on this inscription, ABBAS BANDEH-I SHAH -I WILAYAT (Abbas, the servant of the Lord of All) rand

16th August 2007, 05:31 PM	#5
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Posting pics loaded pics on web site..... Attached Images

16th August 2007, 05:34 PM	#6
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	More pics Attached More pics loaded to site Attached Images

10th August 2007, 08:01 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	The condition in general and koftgari in particular are in prestine condition!!

16th August 2007, 05:41 PM	#7
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Silver Inlay in Oclussion In the bottom photo showing the spine of the blade, note the silver inlayed into the oclussion. Have only seen inlay into oclussions done on well made blades, usually with silver. Could it be a trend of a certain manufacturing area or a certain blade maker? Have had one example that had gold inlayed into the oclussion. Also want to point out the pitting on cross guard. rand

16th August 2007, 06:37 PM	#8
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 935	An Oclusion (FOLD LINE) Rand, These are very nice swords. AssadAllah and Shah Abbas stamps are typical combination indicating a maker (most probably a School) and a ruling principal. The pitting on a crossguard is a nice indication of it's age As for the line at the ridge of the blade: Yes, many wootz shamshirs have it!!!!! It indicates a last fold when the sword was made. My personal guess is that the maker's intention was to show that the blade was indeed folded (as to proove the process). I can see them saying to the buyer: "Look, it was folded 1000 times, and this is the last fold line" Just like modern dealers say: "Look, it is hand made". An inlay could have been added for decoration purposes, and/or to protect the opening from dust, debree... and blood Again, purely my guess. Very nice collection. Do these swords have any scabbards?

16th August 2007, 07:24 PM	#9
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Scabbards Hello Alex, Neither of the two shamshirs pictured in the photo have a scabbard. However, the shamshir with the wider quillons had a sister sword, that on the pommel was "Keeper of the Gate" (Farsi?) inlaid in gold and it had a scabbard with two suspension rings mount with identical decoration, that sword hung in the Turkish manner at a 90 degree angle. If I had some period quality suspension ring mounts would certainly have scabbards made to house these two swords. rand

16th August 2007, 08:20 PM	#10
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Lot of good shamshir info in this articel ok to print out http://users.rcn.com/wardc/scan2.tif ward

16th August 2007, 11:32 PM	#11
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Shanshir Article Hey Ward, Thanks for posting Olivers article. Have a feeling that article has some age, believe Olivers opinion about when shamshir was developed would be earlier now. Was surprised he said beginning of 17th century. Know Oliver had a shamshir dated in the 1590's twenty five years ago. There are now shamshirs known with earlier art designs on blade suggesting at least an early 16th century date for the designs on blade. Also Zaki go's even further, saying the long, thicker wedge section, shallow curved blade devoped was 1500-1650. rand

17th August 2007, 01:19 AM	#12
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	I will email Mr. Pinchot and ask him.

17th August 2007, 02:30 AM	#13
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Tell Oliver hi... Tell Oliver I said hi..... rand

17th August 2007, 08:03 PM	#14
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Reply-- Ward, I do stand by the data contained in the article. Dating the origin of the shamshir is a difficult process which by its nature cannot be considered precise-- even dated examples show considerable variance, as noted in the frequency distribution applied to blades signed Assad Allah in Mayer's work on p. 7. As for the shamshir you mentioned, the blade was very heavy, deeply curved and of wedge section with a relatively active pattern of silver-gray contrast. Its inscription was tiny and since the digits were worn, magnification from a number of angles was required in order to read it accurately. Ultimately it proved to be from the early 1620s. O.P.

17th August 2007, 08:43 PM	#15
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	1620's Blade Hi Ward, Is Oliver referring to the shamshir with a double rung ladder pattern, armor piercing tip and stag horn grip scales? Regarding blade shapes, we know there was a huge change in the culture surrounding the develoopement of the Ottoman Empire. The Sultans heavily supported the artisan community and the Arts flourished which includes the arms and armor arts as well. If you regard the shamshir as developing in the early 17th century you leave a fairly good size void for known 16th century swords. We have examples of the single edges curved blade beginning in Eastern Europe 6-8th century as shown in a post by Artzi. Seems to me that finding examples of shamshir with known time period of use will be about the only way to solve this mystery for sure and that has not surfaced yet. It sort of gets back to the question on the kilij from the time of Mehmet II's sword, what is the progression of the kilij in the Ottoman Empire? There are some large voids there too. By the way, I like Oliver and respect his opinion, just am thinking outside the box on this and lean toward a different opinion. Wonder what the response to a shamshir blade with first half 16th century ornamentaion would be? Am still looking at the photo's of your square barrel... thats just an amazing gun. Will look for Zaki's shamshir progression and post his line drawing sword progression. rand