Afghan Parra-I-Tutti/ Pesh

archer · 20th March 2010, 10:54 PM

Just came in this has got to be the oddest of the pesh kabz family. It's all most a Zirah bouk Its' a bit over ten inch blade would be a chain mail, or pork and bean can, opener. What the bird does the figures present on the grip and and sheath represent? It doesn't appear to be the usual peacock. The blade top bolsters and the right side are all inlays.
The grip cap looks old but of a recent style (maybe threaded). Thoughts and comments. Thanks, Steve

VANDOO · 21st March 2010, 01:25 AM

A VERY INTERESTING LITTLE KNIFE. THE WORKMANSHIP LOOKS GOOD THRU OUT AND THE BIRDS ALL APPEAR TO BE THE SAME. PERHAPS THE SAME TOOL WITH A BIRD WAS USED TO PUNCH THE DESIGN INTO THE LEATHER AND THE METAL FOR THE SCBBARD AND HEATED TO BURN THE DESIGN INTO THE HANDLE.?
PERHAPS THE BIRD IS STYLIZED ENOUGH FOR AN ISLAMIC ITEM BUT IT IS NOT THE USUAL FLORAL DESIGNS WHICH SETS IT APART FROM THE NORM.
IF THE MAKER MADE SEVERAL WEAPONS WE MAY SEE THIS BIRD AGAIN, BUT ITS THE FIRST TIME I HAVE SEEN IT. CONGRADULATIONS A NICE DAGGER!.

ariel · 21st March 2010, 01:09 PM

I looked at it and followed it for a while, but decided to let go.
The maille-piercing blade doesn't seem to be of sufficient quality: bent tip.
The brass inlays look too intact.
The rest, including the handle and the scabbard are obviously new: not a scratch on the leather and the horn. The form of the handle is not traditional.
The birds look very fresh.
My best guess is that the knife was recently made in India, Pakistan or even Afghanistan( I've heard there is a thriving souvenir business going there, directed at the "feringhi").

Atlantia · 21st March 2010, 05:36 PM

I would agree with Ariel pretty much.
I think the entire piece is of recent manufacture. I would say it IS a Zirah bouk, and I would guess at Pakistan for its origin.
Looks rather nice though IMO. An interesting combination of old and new design.

archer · 21st March 2010, 08:24 PM

Hi, Vandoo your correct about how the bird design was applied. My first impression was a penguin.
Ariel/ Atlantia, The bend in the blade is I feel purposely placed to insure purchase of the thicker tip into chain mail and prevent slipping. I think this isn't needed for Karuds and other pointed tip T blades. It's most likely Afghan, new or old & refurbished is fine with Me. The price was right and it fills a niche in my Afghan items. The inlays are just that and not koftgari.
I'd like to hear of others like it, as this is the second one I've seen so far. Still wondering about the bird. Thanks for your input. here's an example of a Zirah I have with a bent tip.
Thank you, Steve

Robert · 21st March 2010, 09:15 PM

The bird stamping reminds me of a Puffin a type of sea bird.

Tim Simmons · 21st March 2010, 09:31 PM

You will not get anywhere with this type of item. I let mine go for very little. I am not that silly when it comes to metalwork but that's life.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=486

Atlantia · 21st March 2010, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archer

Hi, Vandoo your correct about how the bird design was applied. My first impression was a penguin.
Ariel/ Atlantia, The bend in the blade is I feel purposely placed to insure purchase of the thicker tip into chain mail and prevent slipping. I think this isn't needed for Karuds and other pointed tip T blades. It's most likely Afghan, new or old & refurbished is fine with Me. The price was right and it fills a niche in my Afghan items. The inlays are just that and not koftgari.
I'd like to hear of others like it, as this is the second one I've seen so far. Still wondering about the bird. Thanks for your input. here's an example of a Zirah I have with a bent tip.
Thank you, Steve

Hi Steve,

The top one is a very interesting and close comparison.
I have occasionally seen armour piercers with a 'crooked' tip as you show, but I've never seen one with a 'double kink' and never sideways as well as 'down' (unless I'm misinterpreting your pictures).
Perhaps yours started out with a small kink and it's had a mishap which has exaggerated it?
Its certainly a nice and interesting knife.

archer · 21st March 2010, 10:32 PM

Robert you got Me thinking, doesn't often happen. The USAF had Me spend a year in NW Pakistan in the sixties. They had Hungarian Partridge. Found this:
kowk-bazi makes partridges into fighters. Released from their special cages and carefully bred, these small birds go at each other under the watchful eye of referees. When it becomes clear which partridge is "chicken," the match ends, since as in most of these animal fights (which range up to dogs and camels), the prized creatures are too valuable to have injured or killed. A mesmerized betting circle of men stands around at 5 am before a long working day at the old fortress in Tashqurghan.

Alantia this photo exaggerates a bit. The last 1/4 inch of the blade has 1/8 inch
sideways bend to the right I would guess it wasn't made that way but is the result of damage. I've looked through My books and can't find the final blade reversal on anything. Perhaps it's a personal preference? I'd still like to see some other examples of this odd Afghan Pesh Kabz.

ALEX · 22nd March 2010, 02:16 PM

See, and read, the post from another forum:
http://swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=138345
Please look at the pictures at the top, these daggers are sold around the world as anything between 17th to early 20th C period items. It's ok for people who collect knifes (and not antique knifes!). Absolutely nothing wrong with it. Whats important is to realize that it takes more than the presence of chiseling, inlay, form, shape, stamp, the reference picture in the book etc. etc. to determine the authenticity.

ariel · 22nd March 2010, 02:26 PM

With this bird-mark, we can recognize a new subtype of Para-i-Tutti: Parakeet-Tutti :-)

archer · 22nd March 2010, 09:47 PM

Actually, the term Para-I-Tutti is from Tiris' book "Islamic weapons". He uses it to describe another conventional Pesh Kabez on the next page.
I'm aware of the ongoing reproductions out there and this may well be one. I have just seen one of these blade tip hooks now on I'm sure a recent dagger.
That hook may well be made up from someones imagination or from observations. If we don't see lots of these suddenly on the market, that maybe the style is valid, if not with the hook. In the mean time I'll crackup watching the birdie! Thank you all, Steve

Montino Bourbon · 23rd March 2010, 02:50 AM

I bid on it too; it was usual enough to interest me.

if I had gotten it, I think I would've straightened the tip if it was a sideways bend. not so hard to do, and then re-temper. I know, I know; the authenticity and all, but I like my blades be functional. When you're in a hurry at the supermarket, you don't want a blade with bent tip to slow you down!

20th March 2010, 10:54 PM	#1
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Afghan Parra-I-Tutti/ Pesh Just came in this has got to be the oddest of the pesh kabz family. It's all most a Zirah bouk Its' a bit over ten inch blade would be a chain mail, or pork and bean can, opener. What the bird does the figures present on the grip and and sheath represent? It doesn't appear to be the usual peacock. The blade top bolsters and the right side are all inlays. The grip cap looks old but of a recent style (maybe threaded). Thoughts and comments. Thanks, Steve Attached Images

21st March 2010, 08:24 PM	#5
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Followup Hi, Vandoo your correct about how the bird design was applied. My first impression was a penguin. Ariel/ Atlantia, The bend in the blade is I feel purposely placed to insure purchase of the thicker tip into chain mail and prevent slipping. I think this isn't needed for Karuds and other pointed tip T blades. It's most likely Afghan, new or old & refurbished is fine with Me. The price was right and it fills a niche in my Afghan items. The inlays are just that and not koftgari. I'd like to hear of others like it, as this is the second one I've seen so far. Still wondering about the bird. Thanks for your input. here's an example of a Zirah I have with a bent tip. Thank you, Steve Attached Images

21st March 2010, 09:15 PM	#6
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	The bird stamping reminds me of a Puffin a type of sea bird. Attached Images

21st March 2010, 10:32 PM	#9
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	More followup Robert you got Me thinking, doesn't often happen. The USAF had Me spend a year in NW Pakistan in the sixties. They had Hungarian Partridge. Found this: kowk-bazi makes partridges into fighters. Released from their special cages and carefully bred, these small birds go at each other under the watchful eye of referees. When it becomes clear which partridge is "chicken," the match ends, since as in most of these animal fights (which range up to dogs and camels), the prized creatures are too valuable to have injured or killed. A mesmerized betting circle of men stands around at 5 am before a long working day at the old fortress in Tashqurghan. Alantia this photo exaggerates a bit. The last 1/4 inch of the blade has 1/8 inch sideways bend to the right I would guess it wasn't made that way but is the result of damage. I've looked through My books and can't find the final blade reversal on anything. Perhaps it's a personal preference? I'd still like to see some other examples of this odd Afghan Pesh Kabz. Last edited by archer; 22nd March 2010 at 12:41 AM.

22nd March 2010, 09:47 PM	#12
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	More Actually, the term Para-I-Tutti is from Tiris' book "Islamic weapons". He uses it to describe another conventional Pesh Kabez on the next page. I'm aware of the ongoing reproductions out there and this may well be one. I have just seen one of these blade tip hooks now on I'm sure a recent dagger. That hook may well be made up from someones imagination or from observations. If we don't see lots of these suddenly on the market, that maybe the style is valid, if not with the hook. In the mean time I'll crackup watching the birdie! Thank you all, Steve

21st March 2010, 01:25 AM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A VERY INTERESTING LITTLE KNIFE. THE WORKMANSHIP LOOKS GOOD THRU OUT AND THE BIRDS ALL APPEAR TO BE THE SAME. PERHAPS THE SAME TOOL WITH A BIRD WAS USED TO PUNCH THE DESIGN INTO THE LEATHER AND THE METAL FOR THE SCBBARD AND HEATED TO BURN THE DESIGN INTO THE HANDLE.? PERHAPS THE BIRD IS STYLIZED ENOUGH FOR AN ISLAMIC ITEM BUT IT IS NOT THE USUAL FLORAL DESIGNS WHICH SETS IT APART FROM THE NORM. IF THE MAKER MADE SEVERAL WEAPONS WE MAY SEE THIS BIRD AGAIN, BUT ITS THE FIRST TIME I HAVE SEEN IT. CONGRADULATIONS A NICE DAGGER!.

21st March 2010, 01:09 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I looked at it and followed it for a while, but decided to let go. The maille-piercing blade doesn't seem to be of sufficient quality: bent tip. The brass inlays look too intact. The rest, including the handle and the scabbard are obviously new: not a scratch on the leather and the horn. The form of the handle is not traditional. The birds look very fresh. My best guess is that the knife was recently made in India, Pakistan or even Afghanistan( I've heard there is a thriving souvenir business going there, directed at the "feringhi").

21st March 2010, 05:36 PM	#4
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I would agree with Ariel pretty much. I think the entire piece is of recent manufacture. I would say it IS a Zirah bouk, and I would guess at Pakistan for its origin. Looks rather nice though IMO. An interesting combination of old and new design.

21st March 2010, 09:31 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	You will not get anywhere with this type of item. I let mine go for very little. I am not that silly when it comes to metalwork but that's life. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=486

22nd March 2010, 02:16 PM	#10
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 935	See, and read, the post from another forum: http://swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=138345 Please look at the pictures at the top, these daggers are sold around the world as anything between 17th to early 20th C period items. It's ok for people who collect knifes (and not antique knifes!). Absolutely nothing wrong with it. Whats important is to realize that it takes more than the presence of chiseling, inlay, form, shape, stamp, the reference picture in the book etc. etc. to determine the authenticity.

22nd March 2010, 02:26 PM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	With this bird-mark, we can recognize a new subtype of Para-i-Tutti: Parakeet-Tutti :-)

23rd March 2010, 02:50 AM	#13
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 295	so you got it! I bid on it too; it was usual enough to interest me. if I had gotten it, I think I would've straightened the tip if it was a sideways bend. not so hard to do, and then re-temper. I know, I know; the authenticity and all, but I like my blades be functional. When you're in a hurry at the supermarket, you don't want a blade with bent tip to slow you down!