#1603 Sultan Barong

Maurice · 14th January 2019, 12:51 PM

Lovely barong.

drac2k · 14th January 2019, 03:10 PM

Beautiful! To me, the most impressive feature is the wonderful and delicate carving of the handle; stunning!

Battara · 14th January 2019, 11:41 PM

Another possibility is that the gold is not pure gold but heavily alloyed with silver in this case. This is not unheard of at all and in principle would be in the same category as swassa, thus abiding by the "no gold" rule.

Bill M · 15th January 2019, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Another possibility is that the gold is not pure gold but heavily alloyed with silver in this case. This is not unheard of at all and in principle would be in the same category as swassa, thus abiding by the "no gold" rule.

It could be. How can I tell? Can it be assayed without damage? I know nothing about how that is done.

If it was "heavily alloyed with silver" would it tarnish in some way? I have not polished it since I got it several years ago. Does swassa tarnish?

I may reach out to a previous owner who is quite knowledgeable and ask his opinion. Will let you know.

Good question! Thanks.

Battara · 15th January 2019, 08:12 PM

Good questions. It looks like it alloyed with silver to me, but if it is still 14k, then it will tarnish some.........in 100 years or so.

Same with swassa, if 9k it will tarnish faster than 14k.

I am thinking yours is gold alloyed with silver instead of copper in 14k (I have a similar barong sleeve with the same mix of gold and silver and no tarnishing).

A jeweler can test to be sure (I've done that before without damage).

Spunjer · 15th January 2019, 10:50 PM

what i find unique in your piece, Bill, is the flamboyant carving on the handle.
i also find it unusual that handle like yours tend to be made out of wood, but yours is ivory, a unique quality. on the other hand the flat top ones tend to be made out of ivory, rarely wood or carabao horn. i don't think this is random.

regarding alloyed with silver. did you remember the piece i picked up from eBay? that was tarnished so bad it was black, but as far as what you have there, and the one i posted (far right on the picture i posted), i don't believe it's heavily alloyed. much like yours, i haven't cleaned mine for a couple of years and yet it maintained it's luster. in the meantime, i can see the silver part was losing its shine

Oliver Pinchot · 16th January 2019, 05:14 AM

As far as I am aware, Qur'an mentions gold only in Chapter 35, the Sura Fatir, Line 33, which refers strictly to the Faithful in Paradise:

[For them are] gardens of perpetual residence which they will enter. They will be adorned therein with bracelets of gold and pearls, and their garments therein will be silk.

Gold is only specifically forbidden in the noted Hadith which recounts that the Prophet Muhammad, holding gold in one hand and silk in the other, stated that these things are forbidden to men but permitted to women in his community.

This suggests one of two possibilities: that the Moros may have been adhering to Qur'anic scripture, but not Hadith - or- that they observed Hadith but did not consider gold parts of things, including weapons, quite the same as objects made entirely of gold. This would allow many uses for gold in terms of weapons: hilt parts, inscriptions, etc., while still following Islamic law, as they perceived it. This argument is also borne out by the great use of gilding on silver, copper and brass throughout the Dar al Islam, while solid gold is exceptionally uncommon.
It is highly unlikely any Moro, sultan or otherwise, would have "felt he was beyond the Sharia Law."

16th January 2019, 05:14 AM	#7
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 456	As far as I am aware, Qur'an mentions gold only in Chapter 35, the Sura Fatir, Line 33, which refers strictly to the Faithful in Paradise: [For them are] gardens of perpetual residence which they will enter. They will be adorned therein with bracelets of gold and pearls, and their garments therein will be silk. Gold is only specifically forbidden in the noted Hadith which recounts that the Prophet Muhammad, holding gold in one hand and silk in the other, stated that these things are forbidden to men but permitted to women in his community. This suggests one of two possibilities: that the Moros may have been adhering to Qur'anic scripture, but not Hadith - or- that they observed Hadith but did not consider gold parts of things, including weapons, quite the same as objects made entirely of gold. This would allow many uses for gold in terms of weapons: hilt parts, inscriptions, etc., while still following Islamic law, as they perceived it. This argument is also borne out by the great use of gilding on silver, copper and brass throughout the Dar al Islam, while solid gold is exceptionally uncommon. It is highly unlikely any Moro, sultan or otherwise, would have "felt he was beyond the Sharia Law." Last edited by Oliver Pinchot; 16th January 2019 at 05:41 PM.

14th January 2019, 12:51 PM	#1
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,324	Lovely barong.

14th January 2019, 03:10 PM	#2
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,187	Beautiful! To me, the most impressive feature is the wonderful and delicate carving of the handle; stunning!

14th January 2019, 11:41 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Another possibility is that the gold is not pure gold but heavily alloyed with silver in this case. This is not unheard of at all and in principle would be in the same category as swassa, thus abiding by the "no gold" rule.

15th January 2019, 08:12 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Good questions. It looks like it alloyed with silver to me, but if it is still 14k, then it will tarnish some.........in 100 years or so. Same with swassa, if 9k it will tarnish faster than 14k. I am thinking yours is gold alloyed with silver instead of copper in 14k (I have a similar barong sleeve with the same mix of gold and silver and no tarnishing). A jeweler can test to be sure (I've done that before without damage).

15th January 2019, 10:50 PM	#6
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	what i find unique in your piece, Bill, is the flamboyant carving on the handle. i also find it unusual that handle like yours tend to be made out of wood, but yours is ivory, a unique quality. on the other hand the flat top ones tend to be made out of ivory, rarely wood or carabao horn. i don't think this is random. regarding alloyed with silver. did you remember the piece i picked up from eBay? that was tarnished so bad it was black, but as far as what you have there, and the one i posted (far right on the picture i posted), i don't believe it's heavily alloyed. much like yours, i haven't cleaned mine for a couple of years and yet it maintained it's luster. in the meantime, i can see the silver part was losing its shine