Turkish translation help needed

wolviex · 23rd August 2005, 06:09 PM

Dear Friends!

This is next time I need your help in translating Oriental inscription. This one I believed is Turkish. Blade is probably Turkish (maybe Persian), and was given to Stanislaw Chomentowski, great envoy to Ottoman Empire in years 1712-14.
The inscrption shown belowed should contain the name of the maker, the date and religious motto. The date was translated many years ago as 1112 y. of hegira (1734 year), so it doesn't exactly fit the date of the Chomentowski lagation. So I need to confirm it, in which I hope, you can help me. Because the lower cartouche is partly hidden behind the quillons, I put (more or less precise) picture of it as well.

And a question? On the blade, along the edge, are golden inscriptions. Well, the questions is are these real letters, or just some (caballistic?) signs, as we can see half moon as well.

Thank you in advance!

B.I · 23rd August 2005, 06:50 PM

thats not an inscription, that a novel!
welcome back michal, we havent seen you for a while.

cant help, obviously with translation , bit can always offer off-tangent/topic questions. the placement of the inscription under the langet doesnt make sense. also the inscription is inlaid on the blade and overlaid on the hilt with a different hand. is it a marriage or just a refit of an older/trade blade (by marriage, i mean well after its working life).

Rivkin · 23rd August 2005, 06:53 PM

I'm probably _the_ wrong person to say something here but as far as I remember:

1. Modern turkish have been largely in use only since 1920 or so. Before the literature was mostly in Ottoman (which is a very different version of turkish), or in persian. I would not expect the signature to be in turkish, but rather in arabic (Quran verses), persian or ottoman. Modern turks usually can not read even ottoman, so the help of a professional may be needed.

I think I can read parts of the signature, and they are in arabic (?) - Allah something...

2. I think the symbols you refer to are actual letters.

3. Again, I'm the wrong person to make statements, but it seems to me that the script if similar to the one I've seen on persian blades. May be Manoucher can help with this one ?

Interesting square-like decoration, very transcaucasian.

wolviex · 23rd August 2005, 07:16 PM

Yes Brian, I'm back

I was settleted in comfortable for a while, but I was sneeking to the forum checking what's new from time to time (krises, krises, krises

).

Rivkin: you are absolutly right about non-Turkish, it's my error, while I generalised it, meaning the language of Ottoman Empire later Turkey. Mea culpa

.

Well, this sabre is full of questions. The blade seems to be damascene with its grey surface color, but it's mat, and there is no pattern on it.

Different styles of inlay? On the other side of the blade we can see another inscription in Latin speaking about Stanislaw Chomentowski, and it's different in style as well.

"Square-like decoration" visible on the handle is so called meander, popular in Poland and taken from antique Greece. Fittings of this sabre are Polish from about end of the 18th century.

23rd August 2005, 06:09 PM	#1
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Turkish translation help needed Dear Friends! This is next time I need your help in translating Oriental inscription. This one I believed is Turkish. Blade is probably Turkish (maybe Persian), and was given to Stanislaw Chomentowski, great envoy to Ottoman Empire in years 1712-14. The inscrption shown belowed should contain the name of the maker, the date and religious motto. The date was translated many years ago as 1112 y. of hegira (1734 year), so it doesn't exactly fit the date of the Chomentowski lagation. So I need to confirm it, in which I hope, you can help me. Because the lower cartouche is partly hidden behind the quillons, I put (more or less precise) picture of it as well. And a question? On the blade, along the edge, are golden inscriptions. Well, the questions is are these real letters, or just some (caballistic?) signs, as we can see half moon as well. Thank you in advance! Attached Images

23rd August 2005, 06:50 PM	#2
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	thats not an inscription, that a novel! welcome back michal, we havent seen you for a while. cant help, obviously with translation , bit can always offer off-tangent/topic questions. the placement of the inscription under the langet doesnt make sense. also the inscription is inlaid on the blade and overlaid on the hilt with a different hand. is it a marriage or just a refit of an older/trade blade (by marriage, i mean well after its working life).

23rd August 2005, 06:53 PM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I'm probably _the_ wrong person to say something here but as far as I remember: 1. Modern turkish have been largely in use only since 1920 or so. Before the literature was mostly in Ottoman (which is a very different version of turkish), or in persian. I would not expect the signature to be in turkish, but rather in arabic (Quran verses), persian or ottoman. Modern turks usually can not read even ottoman, so the help of a professional may be needed. I think I can read parts of the signature, and they are in arabic (?) - Allah something... 2. I think the symbols you refer to are actual letters. 3. Again, I'm the wrong person to make statements, but it seems to me that the script if similar to the one I've seen on persian blades. May be Manoucher can help with this one ? Interesting square-like decoration, very transcaucasian.

23rd August 2005, 07:16 PM	#4
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Yes Brian, I'm back I was settleted in comfortable for a while, but I was sneeking to the forum checking what's new from time to time (krises, krises, krises ). Rivkin: you are absolutly right about non-Turkish, it's my error, while I generalised it, meaning the language of Ottoman Empire later Turkey. Mea culpa . Well, this sabre is full of questions. The blade seems to be damascene with its grey surface color, but it's mat, and there is no pattern on it. Different styles of inlay? On the other side of the blade we can see another inscription in Latin speaking about Stanislaw Chomentowski, and it's different in style as well. "Square-like decoration" visible on the handle is so called meander, popular in Poland and taken from antique Greece. Fittings of this sabre are Polish from about end of the 18th century.