THIEVES CAUGHT

VANDOO · 18th April 2015, 05:16 PM

THE BIG TULSA GUN SHOW WAS APRIL 11 AND 12 TH. WITH 4200, EIGHT FOOT TABLES COVERING 11 ACRES. THEY INSTALLED SURVEILLANCE CAMERAS AND CAUGHT SOME LONG TIME DEALERS STEALING GUNS. ONE HAD TAKEN A $14000.00 GUN AND HID IT UNDER HIS TABLE TO TAKE OUT LATER WITH HIS GUNS. THAT IS HOW THEY HAD BEEN DOING IT FOR PERHAPS 30 YEARS OR MORE AND THEY SPECIALIZED IN HIGH DOLLAR ITEMS. ONE WAS IN HIS 70'S AND ANOTHER IN HIS LATE 60'S. THEY AND THOSE LIKE THEM HAVE DONE A LOT OF DAMAGE OVER THE YEARS IT IS GOOD NEWS THAT THEY HAVE BEEN CAUGHT AND I DO HOPE THEY DO TIME AND DON'T JUST GET OFF WITH A FINE. SUCH SHOWS ARE NOW TAKING ADVANTAGE OF CAMERAS LIKE THE CASINOS HAVE BEEN DOING FOR A VERY LONG TIME SO PERHAPS THIS KIND OF THEFT CAN FINALLY BE ELIMINATED.

spiral · 18th April 2015, 07:51 PM

Excellent!

As with many fields of criminality, Its the ones who are most charming & "legitimate" who are the most dangerous..

spiral

Battara · 18th April 2015, 10:21 PM

WONDERFUL AND WHAT A GREAT IDEA!

A. G. Maisey · 18th April 2015, 11:49 PM

Not all things in Sharia law are bad.

S.Workman · 19th April 2015, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

THE BIG TULSA GUN SHOW WAS APRIL 11 AND 12 TH. WITH 4200, EIGHT FOOT TABLES COVERING 11 ACRES. THEY INSTALLED SURVEILLANCE CAMERAS AND CAUGHT SOME LONG TIME DEALERS STEALING GUNS. ONE HAD TAKEN A $14000.00 GUN AND HID IT UNDER HIS TABLE TO TAKE OUT LATER WITH HIS GUNS. THAT IS HOW THEY HAD BEEN DOING IT FOR PERHAPS 30 YEARS OR MORE AND THEY SPECIALIZED IN HIGH DOLLAR ITEMS. ONE WAS IN HIS 70'S AND ANOTHER IN HIS LATE 60'S. THEY AND THOSE LIKE THEM HAVE DONE A LOT OF DAMAGE OVER THE YEARS IT IS GOOD NEWS THAT THEY HAVE BEEN CAUGHT AND I DO HOPE THEY DO TIME AND DON'T JUST GET OFF WITH A FINE. SUCH SHOWS ARE NOW TAKING ADVANTAGE OF CAMERAS LIKE THE CASINOS HAVE BEEN DOING FOR A VERY LONG TIME SO PERHAPS THIS KIND OF THEFT CAN FINALLY BE ELIMINATED.

Where did you hear about this?

VANDOO · 19th April 2015, 05:20 AM

I TALKED TO SOME OF THE OFFICERS WHO MADE THE ARRESTS AND DEALERS AT THE SHOW. AS FAR AS I KNOW IT HAS NOT BEEN COVERED BY THE NEWS. I HOPE THE WORD GETS AROUND TO OTHER SHOWS SO THIS KIND OF SECURITY CAN BE ADDED. THE WORD ON THESE DEALERS SHOULD GET AROUND AS WELL AS I UNDERSTAND THINGS WERE FOUND FOR SALE IN THEIR POSSESSION THAT HAD WENT MISSING FROM OTHER SHOWS. WHO KNOWS WHAT THEY MAY FIND AT THEIR HOMES.
THE BAD NEWS IS YOU HAD BETTER NOT PICK YOUR NOSE OR SCRATCH YOUR REAR AT SHOWS IN THE FUTURE.

Gustav · 19th April 2015, 09:21 AM

http://www.tulsaworld.com/newshomepa...035dda2bf.html

S.Workman · 19th April 2015, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

http://www.tulsaworld.com/newshomepa...035dda2bf.html

That's horrible. They should be shot, the bail amount was ludicrous.

VANDOO · 19th April 2015, 04:55 PM

WOW! I RECOGNIZE ALL THREE OF THESE GUYS AND THEY CAME ACROSS AS GOOD GUYS. IT JUST GOES TO SHOW " WHO KNOWS WHAT EVIL LURKS IN THE HEARTS OF MEN" THE SHADOW KNOWS! I SURE HOPE THEY SEARCH THEIR HOMES AND BUSINESS BEFORE LETTING THEM OUT ON BAIL. I WONDER HOW MANY GUN SHOWS THEY DID A YEAR AND HOW MANY YEARS THEY HAVE BEEN DOING THIS.

rickystl · 19th April 2015, 06:29 PM

Well. I'm sure glad they were caught. This announcement will likely make any would be thieves at next years Show think twice.

By the way, have any Forum members here been to the Tulsa Show? I've never been there. I know it's the largest gun show in the U.S. I wonder if the Antique is at least somewhat seperate from the Modern? I was at the Baltimore Show last month, which was great, as usual. Rick.

spiral · 19th April 2015, 06:53 PM

I just was thinking of Battaras terrible loss.... & the couple of large UK sword collections stolen in the last few years, the fact that these rare & exotic swords in large quantities disappear to be never seen again, is probably down to people like that, they know what we collect, they know where we live & the know where to move the product to so it wont be seen again....

VANDOO · 19th April 2015, 08:03 PM

THIEVES ARE DEVIOUS AND OFTEN WELL ORGANIZED AND HAVE NO REGARD FOR OTHERS. IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE BUT IN TODAY'S SOCIETY WE NOT ONLY HAVE HOME GROWN, GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIZED, PRISON EDUCATED CROOKS WE HAVE CROOKS FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD BOTH LEGAL AND ILLEGAL. OFTEN THE LAWS REGULATE THE LAW ABIDING WHILE THE CRIMINALS GET MANY CHANCES AND LOOPHOLES IN THE LAW TO CONTINUE THEIR PROFESSION. THE BATTLE OF GOOD AGAINST EVIL CONTINUES

THE TULSA SHOW IS MOSTLY MODERN GUN RELATED BUT THERE ARE MAJOR DEALERS IN ANTIQUE AND RARE GUNS AS WELL. THERE ARE RELATIVELY FEW ETHNOGRAPHIC ITEMS AND ANTIQUE EDGED WEAPONS AT THE SHOW BUT SOMETHING OCCASIONALLY SHOWS UP. THE BALTIMORE SHOW AND LOUISVILLE SHOWS HAVE A LOT MORE OF THAT SORT OF THING. THE LAS VEGAS SHOW IS SAID TO BE LARGE BUT I HAVE NOT BEEN SO DON'T KNOW WHAT IS AVAILABLE THERE.
THE SHOWS HAVE CHANGED OVER THE YEARS AND SOME LIKE TULSA THAT USED TO HAVE GOOD ETHNOGRAPHIC AND EDGED WEAPON SELECTIONS NO LONGER DO.

spiral · 19th April 2015, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

THIEVES ARE DEVIOUS AND OFTEN WELL ORGANIZED AND HAVE NO REGARD FOR OTHERS. IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE BUT IN TODAY'S SOCIETY WE NOT ONLY HAVE HOME GROWN, GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIZED, PRISON EDUCATED CROOKS WE HAVE CROOKS FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD BOTH LEGAL AND ILLEGAL. OFTEN THE LAWS REGULATE THE LAW ABIDING WHILE THE CRIMINALS GET MANY CHANCES AND LOOPHOLES IN THE LAW TO CONTINUE THEIR PROFESSION. .

I don't disagree with what you say, but I do think those 3 pillars of the of the gun & antique trade show community that were just caught, are not immigrants, nor learnt their skills & education at tax payers expense in jail...

A. G. Maisey · 19th April 2015, 11:01 PM

From 1980 through to about 1992 I took a table at gun shows in Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane. There were occasional thefts at these shows, but my memory tells me that nothing of much consequence was stolen.

However, amongst the dealers who attended these shows two things were taken as given:-

1) collectors steal; many collectors regard theft as a legitimate way in which to add to their collections, these thefts are sometimes uncovered many years later, after the collector dies, sometimes the thefts are never uncovered.

2) no other dealer was to be trusted as far as you could kick him.

In respect of #1 above, my specific field is the Javanese keris, and within keris lore, and Javanese belief, one of the legitimate ways in which to obtain possession of a keris, or any other magically charged item, is by theft. The rationale is that if the magically charged object does not wish to remain with the thief, it will not, however, if the thief is intended to have custody of the object, it will stay with him.

Several months ago I suffered a considerable loss through theft. If and when I am certain of the thief's identity, this person will indeed experience magic.

spiral · 20th April 2015, 09:41 PM

That's a Shame Alan... on all counts...

I am totally sure its the reality though..

With kukris they say each finds it rightful owner too..

I guess magic combined with self justification are powerful forces indeed.

I could try to make a joke about well your in Oz , the land of the convicts descendants...

But in truth I am sure its the absolutely the same everywhere.

A. G. Maisey · 20th April 2015, 11:44 PM

Yes, it is probably true that theft is a universal characteristic of human society, perhaps the residual effect of the concept of communal property that existed in more primitive societies.

It may well be that human beings are hard-wired to regard all things as theirs for the taking --- possibly in exchange for something else, possibly by deception or force.

However, the public morality of developed societies is clearly opposed to theft on a small scale, so ultimately most thieves pay a price that far exceeds the value of that which has been stolen.

I emphasise the ideas of small scale theft and public morality.

In the immortal words of Robert Zimmerman:-

"Steal a little and they put you in jail, steal a lot and they make you a king"

Theft permeates our very being.

spiral · 21st April 2015, 07:04 PM

A very true quote Alan.

Psychologically I have to agree that's probably all true.... as even collecting of unnecessary items is probably also a perversion of our innate hunting instinct, First we look for our prey, searching hi & low.

Then we spot it & then hunt it down by wealth compete with the other hunters {If at Bonhams/sothebys & the private top ethnographic arms dealers etc.} Or we hunt it down by trawling the web etc. for the unrecognised & badly described pieces using our knowledge against those of the sellers & indeed once again the other hunters...

We then have that achievement of obtaining that item {The kill..}

Of course being hunter gatherers, even if the result is good, {Tasted good}{Sadly some don't...

) We are soon on the hunt for new prey again...

So I guess on our most basic of needs, theft is just another technique to achieve our prey...If we have rejected society's training in moralism.

As a friend of mine , who many decades ago who was the youngest man to ever get into the SAS was told, during psychological interviews after he explained he could easily kill a true enemy but wasn't sure he could cope with deliberately killing an innocent... "Don't worry about that you've got 19 years of civilisation in you , but a million years of survival." & " we will help get You back to that place to do whatever job is required." {first part as quoted, second as paraphrase as cant remember the exact words, just the meaning from that 30 year old conversation.}

Sancar · 22nd April 2015, 09:25 PM

Ever since I read the this thread and the aticle in the link I'm trying to imagine how the thieves managed to nick thoseguns from tables and walk away with them wthout anyone noticing. These are not wallets or small objects after all; the article mentions at least three rifles stolen this way.

ward · 22nd April 2015, 11:30 PM

Tulsa is wall to wall people and a lot of tables are packed. If you are a dealer items get traded or bought between other dealers pretty regurally. Also dealers do not go under the same security as the public. This incident is pretty unusual in this business. Modern gun dealers are not usually calm about such matters and you can pretty much guarantee that these 3 will not be welcome to shows in the future.

21st April 2015, 07:04 PM	#17
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	A very true quote Alan. Psychologically I have to agree that's probably all true.... as even collecting of unnecessary items is probably also a perversion of our innate hunting instinct, First we look for our prey, searching hi & low. Then we spot it & then hunt it down by wealth compete with the other hunters {If at Bonhams/sothebys & the private top ethnographic arms dealers etc.} Or we hunt it down by trawling the web etc. for the unrecognised & badly described pieces using our knowledge against those of the sellers & indeed once again the other hunters... We then have that achievement of obtaining that item {The kill..} Of course being hunter gatherers, even if the result is good, {Tasted good}{Sadly some don't... ) We are soon on the hunt for new prey again... So I guess on our most basic of needs, theft is just another technique to achieve our prey...If we have rejected society's training in moralism. As a friend of mine , who many decades ago who was the youngest man to ever get into the SAS was told, during psychological interviews after he explained he could easily kill a true enemy but wasn't sure he could cope with deliberately killing an innocent... "Don't worry about that you've got 19 years of civilisation in you , but a million years of survival." & " we will help get You back to that place to do whatever job is required." {first part as quoted, second as paraphrase as cant remember the exact words, just the meaning from that 30 year old conversation.} Last edited by spiral; 21st April 2015 at 10:00 PM.

18th April 2015, 05:16 PM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THIEVES CAUGHT THE BIG TULSA GUN SHOW WAS APRIL 11 AND 12 TH. WITH 4200, EIGHT FOOT TABLES COVERING 11 ACRES. THEY INSTALLED SURVEILLANCE CAMERAS AND CAUGHT SOME LONG TIME DEALERS STEALING GUNS. ONE HAD TAKEN A $14000.00 GUN AND HID IT UNDER HIS TABLE TO TAKE OUT LATER WITH HIS GUNS. THAT IS HOW THEY HAD BEEN DOING IT FOR PERHAPS 30 YEARS OR MORE AND THEY SPECIALIZED IN HIGH DOLLAR ITEMS. ONE WAS IN HIS 70'S AND ANOTHER IN HIS LATE 60'S. THEY AND THOSE LIKE THEM HAVE DONE A LOT OF DAMAGE OVER THE YEARS IT IS GOOD NEWS THAT THEY HAVE BEEN CAUGHT AND I DO HOPE THEY DO TIME AND DON'T JUST GET OFF WITH A FINE. SUCH SHOWS ARE NOW TAKING ADVANTAGE OF CAMERAS LIKE THE CASINOS HAVE BEEN DOING FOR A VERY LONG TIME SO PERHAPS THIS KIND OF THEFT CAN FINALLY BE ELIMINATED.

18th April 2015, 07:51 PM	#2
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Excellent! As with many fields of criminality, Its the ones who are most charming & "legitimate" who are the most dangerous.. spiral

18th April 2015, 10:21 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	WONDERFUL AND WHAT A GREAT IDEA!

18th April 2015, 11:49 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	Not all things in Sharia law are bad.

19th April 2015, 05:20 AM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I TALKED TO SOME OF THE OFFICERS WHO MADE THE ARRESTS AND DEALERS AT THE SHOW. AS FAR AS I KNOW IT HAS NOT BEEN COVERED BY THE NEWS. I HOPE THE WORD GETS AROUND TO OTHER SHOWS SO THIS KIND OF SECURITY CAN BE ADDED. THE WORD ON THESE DEALERS SHOULD GET AROUND AS WELL AS I UNDERSTAND THINGS WERE FOUND FOR SALE IN THEIR POSSESSION THAT HAD WENT MISSING FROM OTHER SHOWS. WHO KNOWS WHAT THEY MAY FIND AT THEIR HOMES. THE BAD NEWS IS YOU HAD BETTER NOT PICK YOUR NOSE OR SCRATCH YOUR REAR AT SHOWS IN THE FUTURE.

19th April 2015, 09:21 AM	#7
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,196	http://www.tulsaworld.com/newshomepa...035dda2bf.html

19th April 2015, 04:55 PM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	WOW! I RECOGNIZE ALL THREE OF THESE GUYS AND THEY CAME ACROSS AS GOOD GUYS. IT JUST GOES TO SHOW " WHO KNOWS WHAT EVIL LURKS IN THE HEARTS OF MEN" THE SHADOW KNOWS! I SURE HOPE THEY SEARCH THEIR HOMES AND BUSINESS BEFORE LETTING THEM OUT ON BAIL. I WONDER HOW MANY GUN SHOWS THEY DID A YEAR AND HOW MANY YEARS THEY HAVE BEEN DOING THIS.

19th April 2015, 06:29 PM	#10
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Well. I'm sure glad they were caught. This announcement will likely make any would be thieves at next years Show think twice. By the way, have any Forum members here been to the Tulsa Show? I've never been there. I know it's the largest gun show in the U.S. I wonder if the Antique is at least somewhat seperate from the Modern? I was at the Baltimore Show last month, which was great, as usual. Rick.

19th April 2015, 06:53 PM	#11
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	I just was thinking of Battaras terrible loss.... & the couple of large UK sword collections stolen in the last few years, the fact that these rare & exotic swords in large quantities disappear to be never seen again, is probably down to people like that, they know what we collect, they know where we live & the know where to move the product to so it wont be seen again....

19th April 2015, 08:03 PM	#12
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THIEVES ARE DEVIOUS AND OFTEN WELL ORGANIZED AND HAVE NO REGARD FOR OTHERS. IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE BUT IN TODAY'S SOCIETY WE NOT ONLY HAVE HOME GROWN, GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIZED, PRISON EDUCATED CROOKS WE HAVE CROOKS FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD BOTH LEGAL AND ILLEGAL. OFTEN THE LAWS REGULATE THE LAW ABIDING WHILE THE CRIMINALS GET MANY CHANCES AND LOOPHOLES IN THE LAW TO CONTINUE THEIR PROFESSION. THE BATTLE OF GOOD AGAINST EVIL CONTINUES THE TULSA SHOW IS MOSTLY MODERN GUN RELATED BUT THERE ARE MAJOR DEALERS IN ANTIQUE AND RARE GUNS AS WELL. THERE ARE RELATIVELY FEW ETHNOGRAPHIC ITEMS AND ANTIQUE EDGED WEAPONS AT THE SHOW BUT SOMETHING OCCASIONALLY SHOWS UP. THE BALTIMORE SHOW AND LOUISVILLE SHOWS HAVE A LOT MORE OF THAT SORT OF THING. THE LAS VEGAS SHOW IS SAID TO BE LARGE BUT I HAVE NOT BEEN SO DON'T KNOW WHAT IS AVAILABLE THERE. THE SHOWS HAVE CHANGED OVER THE YEARS AND SOME LIKE TULSA THAT USED TO HAVE GOOD ETHNOGRAPHIC AND EDGED WEAPON SELECTIONS NO LONGER DO.

19th April 2015, 11:01 PM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	From 1980 through to about 1992 I took a table at gun shows in Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane. There were occasional thefts at these shows, but my memory tells me that nothing of much consequence was stolen. However, amongst the dealers who attended these shows two things were taken as given:- 1) collectors steal; many collectors regard theft as a legitimate way in which to add to their collections, these thefts are sometimes uncovered many years later, after the collector dies, sometimes the thefts are never uncovered. 2) no other dealer was to be trusted as far as you could kick him. In respect of #1 above, my specific field is the Javanese keris, and within keris lore, and Javanese belief, one of the legitimate ways in which to obtain possession of a keris, or any other magically charged item, is by theft. The rationale is that if the magically charged object does not wish to remain with the thief, it will not, however, if the thief is intended to have custody of the object, it will stay with him. Several months ago I suffered a considerable loss through theft. If and when I am certain of the thief's identity, this person will indeed experience magic.

20th April 2015, 09:41 PM	#15
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	That's a Shame Alan... on all counts... I am totally sure its the reality though.. With kukris they say each finds it rightful owner too.. I guess magic combined with self justification are powerful forces indeed. I could try to make a joke about well your in Oz , the land of the convicts descendants... But in truth I am sure its the absolutely the same everywhere.

20th April 2015, 11:44 PM	#16
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	Yes, it is probably true that theft is a universal characteristic of human society, perhaps the residual effect of the concept of communal property that existed in more primitive societies. It may well be that human beings are hard-wired to regard all things as theirs for the taking --- possibly in exchange for something else, possibly by deception or force. However, the public morality of developed societies is clearly opposed to theft on a small scale, so ultimately most thieves pay a price that far exceeds the value of that which has been stolen. I emphasise the ideas of small scale theft and public morality. In the immortal words of Robert Zimmerman:- "Steal a little and they put you in jail, steal a lot and they make you a king" Theft permeates our very being.

22nd April 2015, 09:25 PM	#18
Sancar Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 79	Ever since I read the this thread and the aticle in the link I'm trying to imagine how the thieves managed to nick thoseguns from tables and walk away with them wthout anyone noticing. These are not wallets or small objects after all; the article mentions at least three rifles stolen this way.

22nd April 2015, 11:30 PM	#19
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Tulsa is wall to wall people and a lot of tables are packed. If you are a dealer items get traded or bought between other dealers pretty regurally. Also dealers do not go under the same security as the public. This incident is pretty unusual in this business. Modern gun dealers are not usually calm about such matters and you can pretty much guarantee that these 3 will not be welcome to shows in the future.