Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Keris Warung Kopi
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 15th August 2017, 12:27 PM   #31
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,442
Default

That would be good Kai.
A. G. Maisey is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15th August 2017, 12:49 PM   #32
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 5,829
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
.... interesting and with 3 examples we have established an pattern....


Thank you Kai for posting the three examples side by side!

Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
I'm not convinced that Jean's pendok has any relationship with these 3 discussed here. (Thanks for adding the pic!)


Agree with you, certainly no relationship with the three other examples.

Regards,
Detlef
Sajen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15th August 2017, 12:52 PM   #33
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 5,829
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
I guess we all agree that these 2 hilts are of the same style.

Still, I'd be very cautious of any claims like same maker/workshop/school - successful designs tend to get copied very quickly!

My best guess would be that this non-traditional hilt reflects the European influence during the first half of the 20th century (up to Indonesian independence) in Bali (or, possibly less likely, Lombok). I can't rule out a Madurese origin nor Kota Gede work though.



Agree in all points with you!
Sajen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15th August 2017, 12:56 PM   #34
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 5,829
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
My question is this:-

were the keris in this exhibition accompanied by reliable provenance?


Hello Alan,

Kai has already said what I can say but like Kai I will try to get further informations.

Regards,
Detlef
Sajen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15th August 2017, 09:38 PM   #35
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4,442
Default

Thank you Detlef.
A. G. Maisey is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15th August 2017, 10:11 PM   #36
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 859
Default

As I said earlier, I find the hilt absolutely fascinating but... so much similar to the style of the famous Milanese armourer Filippo Negroli.

Besides, I find strange I haven't seen any hilt in this style anywhere in Indonesia (and I have visited quite a few museums and collections there) and then, they suddenly pop up in European collections.

Could it be that the hilt comes from an Italian or German workshop?

Last edited by mariusgmioc : 15th August 2017 at 10:28 PM.
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th August 2017, 12:42 PM   #37
Roland_M
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 347
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
As I said earlier, I find the hilt absolutely fascinating but... so much similar to the style of the famous Milanese armourer Filippo Negroli.

Could it be that the hilt comes from an Italian or German workshop?


Hello Marius,

thank you for your comment. All I can say is that despite its shape, the hilt is very ergonomic, which is typical for Indonesia.

The only thing on the hilt which is traditional are the decorations on the base of the hilt. If the hilt would be from Europe, it normallly got a stamp and or signature. So I think the complete Keris has been made in Indonesia.

The silver-work on the scabbard is of very high quality but compared to the scabbard in the added picture it is just average.

If you think, you have a top grade item, there is always a better one .


Best wishes,
Roland

p.s. please dont tell anyone from this picture, it is top secret
Attached Images
 
Roland_M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th August 2017, 06:16 AM   #38
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 859
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland_M
Hello Marius,

All I can say is that despite its shape, the hilt is very ergonomic, which is typical for Indonesia.

The only thing on the hilt which is traditional are the decorations on the base of the hilt. If the hilt would be from Europe, it normallly got a stamp and or signature. So I think the complete Keris has been made in Indonesia.


Hello Roland,

I am not so sure ergonomics can be seen as a criteria specific to Indonesia. I have seen European silver handles for walking sticks that are quite ergonomic and some were unmarked.

Anyhow, it certainly is the work of a very skilled silversmith.

Regards,

Marius
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th August 2017, 06:20 PM   #39
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,191
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Could it be that the hilt comes from an Italian or German workshop?

Well. personally i have little doubt this silverwork is Balinese. The questions for me are more about timeframe than location. Balinese silversmiths are renown for their skills. They are also quite good at picking up and mimicking the styles. While i do see what you see that seems to show a European influence i would think that just "influence" is as far as that goes.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 07:26 PM   #40
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 859
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Well, i don't think there is any question that this blade has some age.


Hello David,

Well, the blade certainly has "some" age but in my opinion it is less than 20, most likely less than 10 years old.

The pamor is crisp and clear and all the fine details of the carvings are equally crisp and clear.

From all what I know, even a blade kept in ideal conditions, in time will show less contrast of the pamor.

Moreover, the style/theme of decoration is almost identical to the style/theme I saw in several new kerises I have seen in the market in Solo. The pamor also seems the average pamor one can see on many new kerises.

Last but not least, the quality and detail of the engraving doesn't appear to be neither very elaborate, nor very well executed. To me, it looks by no means better than the average kerises I have seen in the market in Solo or at the dealer in Jogja.

All these make me be pretty sure it is a recently made, Javanese blade. But I have very little experience with kerises and I base my judgement mostly on comparisons with the kerises I saw during my recent trip to Indonesia and the few that passed through my hands.

So, if I am wrong in my assertion, I would appreciate if you or anybody on this forum can help and educate me as to what makes the blade of this keris Balinese, older than 10 years or otherwise very special?!

Regards,

Marius

Last edited by mariusgmioc : Yesterday at 07:37 PM.
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 07:55 PM   #41
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 5,829
Default

Hello Marius,

only one short question: Would you expect to see Ganesha (a hindu god) in this execusion on a blade fom a islamic region?

I've seen and handled keris blades in nearly mint condition which has been verifiable more as hundred years old.

Best regards,
Detlef

Last edited by Sajen : Yesterday at 08:07 PM.
Sajen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 08:20 PM   #42
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 859
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Hello Marius,

only one short question: Would you expect to see Ganesha (a hindu god) in this execusion on a blade fom a islamic region?

I've seen and handled keris blades in nearly mint condition which has been verifiable more as hundred years old.

Best regards,
Detlef


Hello Detlef,

Not only that I would expect to see Ganesha, but I have actually seen several new Javanese keris blades with Ganesha and some with Garuda. They were also carved in gold-work very similar to the one of this blade. I suppose they were made for the tourist market.

I have seen the respective blades in the market in Solo and at a dealer in Jogja, and I am pretty sure they were locally made and not "imported" from Bali.

Just have a look at the link below and see a perfect example of a very un-Islamic Ganesho-Garuda-Himero-Naga Javanese keris that is in my possesion:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21200

Also see photos of another un-Islamic antropomorphic Javanese keris and a un-Islamic Madurese Garuda Keris (that both were in my posession).

Last but not least, I am attaching a photo from the book "The Javanese Kris" by Isaac Groneman, that also illustrates a Ganesha example.



PS: I have more examples but they are currently on sale.
Attached Images
      

Last edited by mariusgmioc : Yesterday at 09:33 PM.
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 01:44 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.