Sword guard for comments

fernando · 29th January 2019, 04:01 PM

Guard now in hands; new pictures uploaded.
I will later try and restore some contents of the conversations we had, as previous ones were lost; my mistake

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midelburgo · 30th January 2019, 01:44 AM

Robert-Jean Charles in ÉTUDE SUR LES ÉPÉES DU MOYEN ÂGE AU 17° SIÈCLE

http://www.bertrand-malvaux.com/fr/p...70-siecle.html

Focuses on the early evolution of the sword guard in the late XVth early XVIth century. Taking into account especially Iberian examples. He has nothing like your guard.

Not in Norman, Rapier, and Smallsword. Not in Seitz. Not in Ada Bruhm.

On the other hand, this is the equivalent piece a cup hilt would have without the bell...

The closest example i find is the XVI century hilt El Cid Tizona blade has:

M ELEY · 30th January 2019, 02:15 AM

That's it! That's the sword I saw and remembered had a similar guard! I kept thinking for some bizarre reason that it was on a Chinese sword!

fernando · 30th January 2019, 11:04 AM

Let me first feel much obliged to Victrix, Udo and Mark for their participation in this topic's previous incarnation.
But of course, midleburgo, this is much too evident to be otherwise. The thing is that, i and my fellow collector skipped such hypothesis from the beginning as we became blinded by the double tang hole "detail". This differentiation only prevents us from calling it a replica in a strict sense but, this guard has definitely followed the Tizona style.
Now, what are we facing here ? The seller said this was found in the manor house of a family with military tradition, in the center of Madrid. Could it be ... or not. But then, why has the smith made it with with such particular difference; to fit a blade also with a particular shape ... or some kind of personal (or customer) innovation ? i (also) have paged a dozen books and found no guard with such mounting style.
A question i would ask: how old would it be ? It looks as having been hand beaten made ... no cast seams.
And worthy of note are also its specs.; 22 cms. between guard ends and an impressive 600 grams.

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midelburgo · 30th January 2019, 02:50 PM

What I find weird is not the present piece design, which seems logical in the evolution of sword guards, but the lack of similar examples.
1)The first possibility is that it is a real early XVIth century Iberian hilt. But these swords are fairly light. 600 grams just for the guard is a lot.

2)I have been checking copies of Tizona, some of them well 130 years old, and none have that design in the lower guard. There have been pictures of Tizona for longer, some 160 years. If somebody wanted to make an accurate copy that was easy. But your piece is just a resemblance. I wonder why. If somebody would have just the picture from Laurent below, possibly he would have come with that design, not knowing what is at the other side, but the rest of the hilt would have been closer to Tizona.

3)Another possibility is that the guard was made in XVIIth or XVIIIth centuries for a San Miguel or Santiago church image. They wanted something looking medieval but at the same time technically closer to what was done at that time.

fernando · 30th January 2019, 03:50 PM

All points noted; lots of reasoning ... thanks a lot.
I take it that, the smith who made this guard (or whoever commissioned it), was familiar with arms making and not passive of having to wonder what would be in the Tizona's opposite guard side, when looking at a flat drawing or a picture; meaning to say that this design was intentional and served a purpose ... be it for practical reasons or a challenging essay.
I myself, as you, keep thinking of its sturdiness; a guard with this weight would call for a blade and pommel to match with, perhaps also an unnecessary overweight for the relative solidity of a Saint's image; my uneducated guess.

29th January 2019, 04:01 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	Sword guard for comments Guard now in hands; new pictures uploaded. I will later try and restore some contents of the conversations we had, as previous ones were lost; my mistake . . Attached Images

30th January 2019, 01:44 AM	#2
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 248	Robert-Jean Charles in ÉTUDE SUR LES ÉPÉES DU MOYEN ÂGE AU 17° SIÈCLE http://www.bertrand-malvaux.com/fr/p...70-siecle.html Focuses on the early evolution of the sword guard in the late XVth early XVIth century. Taking into account especially Iberian examples. He has nothing like your guard. Not in Norman, Rapier, and Smallsword. Not in Seitz. Not in Ada Bruhm. On the other hand, this is the equivalent piece a cup hilt would have without the bell... The closest example i find is the XVI century hilt El Cid Tizona blade has: Attached Images Last edited by midelburgo; 30th January 2019 at 01:56 AM.

30th January 2019, 11:04 AM	#4
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	Let me first feel much obliged to Victrix, Udo and Mark for their participation in this topic's previous incarnation. But of course, midleburgo, this is much too evident to be otherwise. The thing is that, i and my fellow collector skipped such hypothesis from the beginning as we became blinded by the double tang hole "detail". This differentiation only prevents us from calling it a replica in a strict sense but, this guard has definitely followed the Tizona style. Now, what are we facing here ? The seller said this was found in the manor house of a family with military tradition, in the center of Madrid. Could it be ... or not. But then, why has the smith made it with with such particular difference; to fit a blade also with a particular shape ... or some kind of personal (or customer) innovation ? i (also) have paged a dozen books and found no guard with such mounting style. A question i would ask: how old would it be ? It looks as having been hand beaten made ... no cast seams. And worthy of note are also its specs.; 22 cms. between guard ends and an impressive 600 grams. . Attached Images

30th January 2019, 02:50 PM	#5
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 248	What I find weird is not the present piece design, which seems logical in the evolution of sword guards, but the lack of similar examples. 1)The first possibility is that it is a real early XVIth century Iberian hilt. But these swords are fairly light. 600 grams just for the guard is a lot. 2)I have been checking copies of Tizona, some of them well 130 years old, and none have that design in the lower guard. There have been pictures of Tizona for longer, some 160 years. If somebody wanted to make an accurate copy that was easy. But your piece is just a resemblance. I wonder why. If somebody would have just the picture from Laurent below, possibly he would have come with that design, not knowing what is at the other side, but the rest of the hilt would have been closer to Tizona. 3)Another possibility is that the guard was made in XVIIth or XVIIIth centuries for a San Miguel or Santiago church image. They wanted something looking medieval but at the same time technically closer to what was done at that time. Attached Images Last edited by midelburgo; 30th January 2019 at 03:12 PM.

30th January 2019, 02:15 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,066	That's it! That's the sword I saw and remembered had a similar guard! I kept thinking for some bizarre reason that it was on a Chinese sword!

30th January 2019, 03:50 PM	#6
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	All points noted; lots of reasoning ... thanks a lot. I take it that, the smith who made this guard (or whoever commissioned it), was familiar with arms making and not passive of having to wonder what would be in the Tizona's opposite guard side, when looking at a flat drawing or a picture; meaning to say that this design was intentional and served a purpose ... be it for practical reasons or a challenging essay. I myself, as you, keep thinking of its sturdiness; a guard with this weight would call for a blade and pommel to match with, perhaps also an unnecessary overweight for the relative solidity of a Saint's image; my uneducated guess.