Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Keris Warung Kopi

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 20th May 2018, 05:02 AM   #1
Amuk Murugul
Member
 
Amuk Murugul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben
Posts: 457
Default Landean Pralamba Collection (part of)

Hullo everybody!

Still in the middle of 'house-keeping'.
Thought I'd snap'n'post while they're out.
Just to show/share.
Hope it's of use to somebody.
Best,


1.
Handle: Wood Boeta Njengir Tandjoeng Patani w/ embossed white-metal wewer.
Sheath: Wood Majang Golekan Patani w/ embossed white metal bands/ftgs.

2.
Handle: Wood Boeta Njengir Tandjoeng Patani w/ copper wewer and eyes.
Sheath: Wood Two-tone Majang Golekan Patani.

3.
Handle: Wood Boeta Njengir Tandjoeng Patani.
Sheath: Two-tone wood Majang Golekan Patani.

4.
Handle: Wood Boeta Njengir Noengkoel Tandjoeng Patani.
Sheath: Wood Majang Golekan Patani.

5.
Handle: Wood Boeta Njengir Noengkoel Tandjoeng Patani.
Sheath:Wood Majang Golekan Patani.

6.
Handle: Wood Boeta Njengir Tjawsteung.
Sheath: Wood Majang Golekan Singgora w/ white-metal bands/ftgs.

7.
Handle: Wood Boeta Njengir TjawSteung.
Sheath: Wood one-piece.

8.
Handle: Wood Boeta Noengkoel Tandjoeng Patani.
Sheath: Wood, one-piece.

9.
Handle: White-metal Boeta Njengir Nanggahan Malaka.
Sheath: Wood Djongan w/ white-metal embossed-oversheath.

10.
Handle: White-metal Boeta Njengir Djanggotan.
Sheath: Wood Djongkong w/ silver ftgs.

11.
Handle: Ivory Boeta Njengir w/ white-metal wewer and rings.
Sheath: Wood Djongan w/ white-metal embossed sheath and rings; ivory toe.

12.
Handle: White-metal Boeta Njanggejeng Gilek w/ white-metal wewer.
Sheath: Wood Djongan w/ bronze o/sheath in Widjaja-motif.

13.
Handle: White-metal Kitjaka w/ white-metal wewer.
Sheath: Wood Majang Golekan.

14.
Handle: Wood Kitjaka w/ white-metal wewer.
Sheath: Wood Djongkong.

15.
Handle: Wood Boeta Njengir Tandjoeng Patani (SLEMAN).
Sheath: Wood Djongan w/ soenggingan Barata.

16.
Handle: Wood Boeta Njengir Tandjoeng Patani (SLEMAN).
Sheath: Wood Saridjong w/ soenggingan alas-alasan.

17.
Handle: Wood Boeta Toengkoel w/ white-metal fangs, wewer, nose & golden eyes.
Sheath: Wood Saridjong.

18.
Handle: White-metal Boeta Njengir Tjawsteung.
Sheath: Wood Djongan.

19.
Handle: White-metal Boeta Njengir Tjawsteung.
Sheath: Wood Majang Golekan Singgora w/ white-metal bands/ftgs.

20.
Handle: Wood Boeta Njengir Tjawsteung.
Sheath: Wood Majang Golekan Singgora w/ white-metal bands/ftgs.

21.
Handle: Wood Boeta Toengkoel.
Sheath: Wood Majang Golekan.

22.
Handle: Wood Hoeloe Boeta.
Sheath: Wood Kintjangwidjaja.

23.
Handle: Wood Boeta Njanggejeng w/ white-metal wewer.
Sheath: Wood Djongkong w/ white-metal o/sheath showing Widjaja-motif.

24.
Handle: Horn Boeta Nanggahan .
Sheath: Wood Djongkong w/ embossed white-metal o/sheath.

25.
Handle: Wood Boeta Njanggejeng Gilek w/ bronze wewer.
Sheath: Wood Djongkong w/ white-metal hanger.
Attached Images
  

Last edited by Amuk Murugul; 20th May 2018 at 09:55 PM.
Amuk Murugul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2018, 07:38 AM   #2
Paul de Souza
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Singapore
Posts: 65
Default

Pardon my ignorance but what collection is this? From a museum or a personal collection. Just taken by the the Tajong and coteng pieces and hilts.
Paul de Souza is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2018, 09:36 AM   #3
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,740
Default

Very nice collection, thanks! It is not my area of collecting but I am a bit surprised by the mixing of tajong style hilts and Javanese scabbards?
Regards
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2018, 02:26 PM   #4
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,012
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean
Very nice collection, thanks! It is not my area of collecting but I am a bit surprised by the mixing of tajong style hilts and Javanese scabbards?
Regards
Well someone like tajong hilts for sure.
I agree with Jean. Seems like a very nice collection (though the blades themselves would tell more), but the tajong hilts mixed with the Javanese sheaths do not make much sense to my eye. Not sure that they make much sense on keris panjang either.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2018, 04:12 PM   #5
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,740
Default

Hello Amuk,
The wood species names are unknown to me (majang, djongan, etc), do you know their equivalent in Bahasa Indonesia? And as David said, it would be nice to see the blades also and the detailed pics of the hilts.
Regards
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2018, 09:56 PM   #6
Amuk Murugul
Member
 
Amuk Murugul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben
Posts: 457
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul de Souza
Pardon my ignorance but what collection is this? From a museum or a personal collection. Just taken by the the Tajong and coteng pieces and hilts.
Hullo Paul,

Just a sub-group of my personal collection.
Best,
Amuk Murugul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2018, 09:59 PM   #7
Amuk Murugul
Member
 
Amuk Murugul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben
Posts: 457
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean
Very nice collection, thanks! It is not my area of collecting but I am a bit surprised by the mixing of tajong style hilts and Javanese scabbards?
Regards
Hullo Jean,

Well, just to remind me that those hilts were made in Sleman, central Java.
Best,
Amuk Murugul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2018, 10:03 PM   #8
Amuk Murugul
Member
 
Amuk Murugul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben
Posts: 457
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean
Hello Amuk,
The wood species names are unknown to me (majang, djongan, etc), do you know their equivalent in Bahasa Indonesia? And as David said, it would be nice to see the blades also and the detailed pics of the hilts.
Regards
Hullo again Jean,

They are not wood species, rather the type of sheath, equivalent to the mainstream gayaman, ladrang etc. Apologies for the lack of punctuation.
Best,

Last edited by Amuk Murugul; 20th May 2018 at 10:15 PM.
Amuk Murugul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2018, 10:15 PM   #9
Amuk Murugul
Member
 
Amuk Murugul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben
Posts: 457
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Well someone like tajong hilts for sure.
I agree with Jean. Seems like a very nice collection (though the blades themselves would tell more), but the tajong hilts mixed with the Javanese sheaths do not make much sense to my eye. Not sure that they make much sense on keris panjang either.
Hullo David,

I deliberately didn't include the blades as it may detract from the fact that the pieces are grouped according to hilts. So my prime interest in this group is the hilts. The Djawa sheaths are used to remind me that the associated hilts are Djawa.The keris pandjang hilts are original to the kerises (popular until the end of the 19thC.).
I may do the blades at some time in the future, bit by bit. I'm not articulate enough and can only 11-finger type.
Best,
Amuk Murugul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st May 2018, 04:03 AM   #10
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,675
Default

Thank you for posting these images Amuk, very interesting.

You advise that the names you have used for the scabbards are in a language other than BI or Javanese, that the names you have used are not mainstream names.

May I ask the place and time when the names that you use for the scabbards would be recognised by a person who was keris literate?

Thank you.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st May 2018, 04:21 AM   #11
Paul de Souza
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Singapore
Posts: 65
Default

Just curious. But isn't the spelling Amuk is using Dutch?

"Tjawsteung" = Coteng

"Tandjoeng" = Tajong

I have a relative whose father hails from Bangka Island, under Dutch control in the 30s, has the surname Tjang but the rest of the cousins born in Singapore, under the British, have the surname Chang.

Amuk is not usisg the spelling of Bahasa Indonesia or Malaysia.

Are u from Holland Amuk?
Paul de Souza is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st May 2018, 09:14 AM   #12
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,675
Default

Paul in 1972 Indonesia changed the spelling of words from the Dutch system to the English system. Javanese and other local language spellings followed suit. So pre-1972 it was Dutch convention, post 1972 it was English convention

As far as names go, some people have stayed with the old Dutch spellings, others have changed to new spelling.

In the list below, the first column is post 1972 usage, the second column is pre-1972 usage

u = oe
c = tj
j = dj
kh = ch
ny = nj
sy = sj
y = j

This only refers to spelling, pronunciation is consistent no matter what spelling is used, and of course, pronunciation must be learnt separately.

BI is the national and public language, everybody uses a local language at home and mostly in the street.

Correction

It has been rather forcefully pointed out to me that in the case of the letter "u" replacing the Dutch usage of "oe", this change dates from 1947.

Apparently the new regime in the new country of Indonesia had such a deep seated hatred of the previous Dutch overlords that one of their first actions was to get rid of this "oe" usage, something that they found extremely offensive, and in addition, out of step with the Modern World.

Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 21st May 2018 at 10:36 PM.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st May 2018, 03:39 PM   #13
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,012
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul
Hullo David,

I deliberately didn't include the blades as it may detract from the fact that the pieces are grouped according to hilts. So my prime interest in this group is the hilts. The Djawa sheaths are used to remind me that the associated hilts are Djawa.The keris pandjang hilts are original to the kerises (popular until the end of the 19thC.).
I may do the blades at some time in the future, bit by bit. I'm not articulate enough and can only 11-finger type.
Best,
So, you are saying that you the hilts on #15,#16 and #17 are all modern creations that you know were carved in Jawa?
The collection is yours and you are free to dress them as you please, of course, but these hilts still look strange and out of place with those sheaths no matter where they were actually carved. Are the blades within the Jawa sheaths also from Jawa?
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th July 2019, 04:53 AM   #14
Amuk Murugul
Member
 
Amuk Murugul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben
Posts: 457
Default

Hullo everybody!
Just thought I'd drop the following three examples (with a little more data).
It's posted as is, merely for sharing only.
Info may be of use ..... otherwise: ".....nothing to see here .....".

From L-R:

. Doehoeng SINGGORA (=pale/foreign lion; named after the Turco-Mongol warrior who founded the city/state)

Name: Datoe Mogel.
Desc: Doehoeng Borodjol Lempeng SINGGORA .
Tags: Cenok , Chenok , Chenuk , Choteng , Coteng , Singgora , Singora , Songkhla .
Char: -
Blade: LxOALxWxT=24.5x29x5.33x0.95cm.
Wt: 75g.
Handle: White-metal Jaksa(=benevolent spirit; handle symbolises human-spirit partnership) Ardatjandrakapida(=spear-of-mastery-over-celestial-beings) TJAWSTEUNG(=canal-people).
Sheath: Wood Majang Golekan SINGGORA w/ white-metal bands/ftgs.

. Doehoeng PATANI (=pavilion; named after the pavilion built for the ruler who reached the coast to found a new city/state)

Name: Radja Pelangi
Desc: Doehoeng Sampana Tjotjodot Sari Ngahateup Lempeng 18thC. PATANI .
Tags: Pattani , Tajong , Tajung .
Char: Kembang-katjang, Djanoer-rai, Oepih-moetjoek, Lempeng .
Blade: LxOALxWxT=39.5x45x8.42x1.22cm.
Handle: Wood Jaksa Birawi(=destructive-wind) TANDJOENG PATANI(=Patani-cape), swasa nose, ruby eyes w/ white-metal collar.
Wt:196g.
Sheath: Wood Majang Golekan PATANI w/ ivory chape.

. Doehoeng Pandjang MALAKA

Name
: Hang Toeah
Desc: Doehoeng Pandjang Tilamsari Lempeng MALAKA c1900 .
Tags: Execution , Executioner , Penyalang , Salang .
Char: Oepih , Lempeng .
Blade: LxOALxWxT=51x57x7.05x1.24cm.
Wt: 325g.
Handle: White-metal Jaksa Soetjimoesti (=unstoppable-fist).
Sheath: Wood Djongan w/ white-metal embossed-oversheath.

Best,
Attached Images
  

Last edited by Amuk Murugul; 5th July 2019 at 05:03 AM. Reason: punctuation
Amuk Murugul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th July 2019, 08:58 AM   #15
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,740
Default

Translation:
Duwung (keris) Singapore?
Duwung (keris) Patani?
Duwung (keris) panjang Malaka?
The blade of the kris panjang has an elaborate pamor pattern contrary to the usual krisses panjang from Bangkinang without apparent pamor. The scabbard seems to be recently made?
Were the hilts made in Java as I understood from Amuk?
Regards
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th October 2021, 11:34 PM   #16
Amuk Murugul
Member
 
Amuk Murugul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben
Posts: 457
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean View Post
Translation:
Duwung (keris) Singapore?
Duwung (keris) Patani?
Duwung (keris) panjang Malaka?
The blade of the kris panjang has an elaborate pamor pattern contrary to the usual krisses panjang from Bangkinang without apparent pamor. The scabbard seems to be recently made?
Were the hilts made in Java as I understood from Amuk?
Regards
Hullo everybody!
Apologies for the VERY LATE replies.
David:
#17 is as when acquired in southern Kalamantan.
#15, #16 are modern Sleman hilts, blades and sheaths are Djawa.
None are on display.

Paul:
My spelling utilises the old Dutch system for my convenience, so that I know the correct pronunciation/origin.
Tjawsteung=Chao -Steung/-Steng= Canal People.
Back in the day, the people of the area created canal highways to transport goods from one side of the peninsula to the other or anywhere in between.
BTW..... no, I am not from Holland.

Jean:
Singgora/Singhgora/Singagora is NOT Singapore; it was a kingdom which rivalled Patani to such an extent that it drew a lot of commerce away from Patani and thus 'had to be destroyed'.
Doehoeng/dohong/duwung/duhung/keris/kris/kalis all came from the same roots.
Only hilts #15 and #16 are modern Djawa.

Best,
Amuk Murugul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd October 2021, 03:37 AM   #17
jagabuwana
Member
 
jagabuwana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 275
Default

As is usually the case with Amuk Murugul's posts, the language and orthography used to name and describe the items tends to generate a lot of confusion.

Amuk, I can only imagine that you are tired of having to field these questions (even though they are fair questions ), so I hope I can help matters out a bit by pointing to this thread where it has been explained as Basa Sunda Jero: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=basa+jero
jagabuwana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th November 2021, 03:25 PM   #18
Interested Party
Member
 
Interested Party's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Eastern Sierra
Posts: 382
Default

Thanks for the post as always. I always learn from Aumuk Murugul's posts. Then the questions and subsequent discussions they generate are a big bonus. How many people write in Basa Sunda Jero? How many are fluent in this language? Preservation of the language is a vital component to preservation of the culture and history. I feel that these are major goals of the posts, am I correct or reading too much subtext into the conversation?
Interested Party is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:53 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.