vikingsword?!? ID needed

cornelistromp · 27th September 2010, 08:53 PM

Hi all,

as the forum still names vikingsword.com, I thought it still might be the best place to find some answers.

herewith a sword with questions,Finding place is Norffolk in the UK.

parts of the scab. wood and leather, hairy side inside (both hard as stone) remain at the tang and blade.
can any body place/date this sword or know a similar?
the type of pommel is also not known to me
what kind of cross has been used on this type ?

ttl length 90cm ,blade 77, tang 10cm, pommel 60mmx37mm , blade width 53mm.

thanks+regards

Matchlock · 29th September 2010, 07:58 PM

Hi cornelistromp,

I cannot believe that nobody has responded to your thread so far, so I feel kind of obliged to leave my favorite field and have a go at this.

Viking? NO WAY.

It's the fragment of a South German ca. 1535 Landsknecht backsword. Look at the pommel. The quillons are missing as well as the wooden cord bound and leather or velvet covered grip.

I attach images of a similar pommel of a contemporary Landsknecht dagger sold at Bonhams in spring, and of a sword sold at Christie's.

For lots of more illustrations, please see my former thread on Katzbalgers and related Landsknecht swords:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=katzbalger

Best,
Michael

cornelistromp · 29th September 2010, 08:34 PM

Hi Michael,

Thank you very much!
it is very nice to see you write a comment about a sword, it is a very rare and special moment for all of us

this sword is very difficult to place, when you look on top of the pommel in the plan of the blade you see a cross patee. I received reactions from a roman sword till a 16thC sword.still I really can not place it.

I think that it is not a katzbalger because the shoulder of the blade fitted into the cross guard, you can see the trace at the blade, most (all) of the katzbalgers have the shoulder resting on the cross block and more important a ricasso!

f/m I think there is some pattern welding however because there is organic material hard as stone on the blade,it is not very obvious.

looking forward to some more reactions.

Lee · 30th September 2010, 11:43 AM

I am not aware of Viking Age pommels of this form, though the profile of the blade does indeed resemble Viking Age blades. Unfortunately I cannot discern fullering or blade details with all the overlying 'patina.'

There is, in Zurich at the National Museum, a most fantastic and wonderful excavated katzbalger that is mounted with a superb Migration Period pattern-welded blade! All suggesting a second 'working life' for the blade.

I'll try and dig up the museum accession number, details and a picture over the coming weekend.

Matchlock · 30th September 2010, 06:17 PM

Hi Lee,

Superb suggestion - we are eager to see the details!

The idea of a Katzbalger did not come from myself but from an absolutely expert friend who - in his field of late medieval and early Renaissance weapons - has about the same qualified expertise as I hope to be able and boast of

in mine.

Based on my cultural historical background though I can tell that Viking swords had either characteristic Brazil nut or trilobite pommels which the one in question is definitely not.

As soon as you have identified the Zurich Katzbalger I will search my photo archive as I photographed literally everything on various priviledged visits there.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 30th September 2010, 06:58 PM

A Katzbalger of ca. 1535 - same period as yours - in the Musée de l'Armée in Paris.

Best, Michael

27th September 2010, 08:53 PM	#1
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,057	vikingsword?!? ID needed Hi all, as the forum still names vikingsword.com, I thought it still might be the best place to find some answers. herewith a sword with questions,Finding place is Norffolk in the UK. parts of the scab. wood and leather, hairy side inside (both hard as stone) remain at the tang and blade. can any body place/date this sword or know a similar? the type of pommel is also not known to me what kind of cross has been used on this type ? ttl length 90cm ,blade 77, tang 10cm, pommel 60mmx37mm , blade width 53mm. thanks+regards Attached Images

29th September 2010, 07:58 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi cornelistromp, I cannot believe that nobody has responded to your thread so far, so I feel kind of obliged to leave my favorite field and have a go at this. Viking? NO WAY. It's the fragment of a South German ca. 1535 Landsknecht backsword. Look at the pommel. The quillons are missing as well as the wooden cord bound and leather or velvet covered grip. I attach images of a similar pommel of a contemporary Landsknecht dagger sold at Bonhams in spring, and of a sword sold at Christie's. For lots of more illustrations, please see my former thread on Katzbalgers and related Landsknecht swords: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=katzbalger Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 29th September 2010 at 08:20 PM.

29th September 2010, 08:34 PM	#3
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,057	Hi Michael, Thank you very much! it is very nice to see you write a comment about a sword, it is a very rare and special moment for all of us this sword is very difficult to place, when you look on top of the pommel in the plan of the blade you see a cross patee. I received reactions from a roman sword till a 16thC sword.still I really can not place it. I think that it is not a katzbalger because the shoulder of the blade fitted into the cross guard, you can see the trace at the blade, most (all) of the katzbalgers have the shoulder resting on the cross block and more important a ricasso! f/m I think there is some pattern welding however because there is organic material hard as stone on the blade,it is not very obvious. looking forward to some more reactions. Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 29th September 2010 at 09:26 PM.

30th September 2010, 11:43 AM	#4
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 895	Interesting! I am not aware of Viking Age pommels of this form, though the profile of the blade does indeed resemble Viking Age blades. Unfortunately I cannot discern fullering or blade details with all the overlying 'patina.' There is, in Zurich at the National Museum, a most fantastic and wonderful excavated katzbalger that is mounted with a superb Migration Period pattern-welded blade! All suggesting a second 'working life' for the blade. I'll try and dig up the museum accession number, details and a picture over the coming weekend.

30th September 2010, 06:17 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Lee, Superb suggestion - we are eager to see the details! The idea of a Katzbalger did not come from myself but from an absolutely expert friend who - in his field of late medieval and early Renaissance weapons - has about the same qualified expertise as I hope to be able and boast of in mine. Based on my cultural historical background though I can tell that Viking swords had either characteristic Brazil nut or trilobite pommels which the one in question is definitely not. As soon as you have identified the Zurich Katzbalger I will search my photo archive as I photographed literally everything on various priviledged visits there. Best, Michael

30th September 2010, 06:58 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A Katzbalger of ca. 1535 - same period as yours - in the Musée de l'Armée in Paris. Best, Michael