Chinese Firearm

junker · 17th January 2010, 05:16 PM

Hello,

i bought this a few years ago, knowing it is not old, but in thougt of some medieval reenactment.

In the auction house it was described at asian, probably chinese.
For me, ok so far. I think of an fantasy part too. And the quality is poor as you can see.

Some years later a second item was in a small auction, which described it as a medieval weapon. I should cost 5000,- €
No one buied it. (wonder why ;-)

But then the named auction house Herman historica offered two parts of the simmilar shape as chinese firearms from around 1900 at the end of last year.

So I became wondering if it is fantasy, or fake, or a real weapon used by the chinese maybe in the boxer war ?

Do anyone know ?

best regards from
Dirk

bluelake · 18th January 2010, 08:03 AM

It's real and fits on a pole. I have one that I got here in Korea and it has percussion cap nipples. There is a YouTube video of a similar one being used:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNXkUA0KFNY

junker · 28th February 2010, 07:42 PM

Hi,
but it isnt 15th century as thy say.
Must be around 1900 because aof the percussion nipples.
Would you agree ?
Dirk

trenchwarfare · 9th March 2010, 04:59 AM

Hello Dirk. Unless your gun is chemically aged, I would say that it several hundred years old. Hard to tell origin, as that style was world wide.

Maskell · 9th March 2010, 02:41 PM

Gentleman, I have quite a few of these hand cannon. I'm sure some are very old, perhaps 16th century, others I believe are as late as the Boxer rebellion. Some that are percussion have been converted or updated to the more modern system but are much older, many have old repairs. The one in the foreground converted as well as the spear head I had sold to a friend and he wire brushed and waxed them. We are convinced they are old. The round one that has 8 chambers, 3 of which are still loaded. Their are no 2 exactly alike but some are very similar. All of mine came from China but their are reports of some with a more western origin, perhaps traded along the silk routes.

Best,
Jerry

junker · 9th March 2010, 07:48 PM

Hi,
thanks all for the comment.

Very nice collection.

Yes there are very simmilar especially the muzzle part.
I doesnt think of a conversion into percussion, but it might be.
So it will need more research probably a photo from around 1900 to date them clearly to boxer rebellion. Or a painting which is older.
But i have only two books which hadle with chinese antiques.

all the best
Dirk

Philip · 11th March 2010, 06:30 AM

These are different variations of the "hand-gonne", the earliest type of hand-held projectile weapon using gunpowder as an explosive propellant. The examples in this assortment are the types used for signalling, or noisemakers: typically they are of wrought iron, are somewhat crude, and tend to be multi-barrelled (using either a wick-fired touchhole or percussion caps struck by a hand-held hard object such as a hammer, rock, or the like). Examples of these weapons have been found not only in China but Korea and various parts of SE Asia as well.

They are different from the military-issue hand-cannons from China, Korea, Vietnam, and even Japan, whose heyday was prior to the introduction of matchlock muskets by the Portuguese (and, in the case of N. China) by Ottoman emissaries in the early 1500s. I would refer the reader to Howard L. Blackmore's excellent article on these weapons, "The Oldest Dated Gun", in the journal ARMS COLLECTING, Vol. 34, No. 2 (May 1995). The military hand-gonnes (the earliest extant specimen with a date is Chinese, 1332) are almost always of bronze, single-barrelled, in most cases with an expansion or bulge which reinforces the combustion-chamber, and with several raised moldings at intervals along the barrel. They are generally well-cast and finished and unlike the pieces shown in this thread, they are inscribed with the place of manufacture and date. Most indicate manufacture in the 15th and early 16th cent.; those with later dates are scarcer and they seem to have fallen completely out of use by turn of the 17th cent. except, perhaps, as signalling devices or short-range weapons used for throwing a quantity of buckshot-like projectiles from their relatively large bores.

I have examined a large number of the iron cannons which are the subject of this thread. Most recently, over a half dozen of them which a dealer brought to the Louisville gun show. Some appear to have been assembled of industrial-type steam pipe, with wire coil wrapping and signs of welding here and there. Despite the rust, the wire appeared to be drawn by mechanical processes. I have been informed that roughly-made muskets (some of vaguely European style but locally-made), and blacksmith made devices such as these "gonnes" remained in use well into the 20th cent. by Chinese farmers to scare birds away from their crops. (the custom was maintained even in some Chinese emigre communities: years ago a friend in Hawaii showed me a couple of rusty surplus military muskets recovered from under a house in Honolulu, the family used to have rice farms a few generations back. Practically every farming household had these, for scaring birds or for shooting them for the pot. One of the guns my friend found was an unaltered Prussian army musket which could have been from the time of Frederick the Great, converted from flintlock, with the "Potsdam" inscription on the lockplate still legible. Sadly, a century or more of neglect in tropical humidity had turned it into an unrestorable wallhanger.

bluelake · 11th March 2010, 12:49 PM

I have one I bought here in Korea a few years ago.

Atlantia · 11th March 2010, 10:45 PM

If the converted ones are to be hit with something to detonate the cap, then they must be bloody hard to aim.

17th January 2010, 05:16 PM	#1
junker Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 140	Chinese Firearm Hello, i bought this a few years ago, knowing it is not old, but in thougt of some medieval reenactment. In the auction house it was described at asian, probably chinese. For me, ok so far. I think of an fantasy part too. And the quality is poor as you can see. Some years later a second item was in a small auction, which described it as a medieval weapon. I should cost 5000,- € No one buied it. (wonder why ;-) But then the named auction house Herman historica offered two parts of the simmilar shape as chinese firearms from around 1900 at the end of last year. So I became wondering if it is fantasy, or fake, or a real weapon used by the chinese maybe in the boxer war ? Do anyone know ? best regards from Dirk Attached Images

28th February 2010, 07:42 PM	#3
junker Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 140	old Hi, but it isnt 15th century as thy say. Must be around 1900 because aof the percussion nipples. Would you agree ? Dirk

9th March 2010, 02:41 PM	#5
Maskell Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 38	Chinese hand cannons Gentleman, I have quite a few of these hand cannon. I'm sure some are very old, perhaps 16th century, others I believe are as late as the Boxer rebellion. Some that are percussion have been converted or updated to the more modern system but are much older, many have old repairs. The one in the foreground converted as well as the spear head I had sold to a friend and he wire brushed and waxed them. We are convinced they are old. The round one that has 8 chambers, 3 of which are still loaded. Their are no 2 exactly alike but some are very similar. All of mine came from China but their are reports of some with a more western origin, perhaps traded along the silk routes. Best, Jerry Attached Images

9th March 2010, 07:48 PM	#6
junker Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 140	muzzle Hi, thanks all for the comment. Very nice collection. Yes there are very simmilar especially the muzzle part. I doesnt think of a conversion into percussion, but it might be. So it will need more research probably a photo from around 1900 to date them clearly to boxer rebellion. Or a painting which is older. But i have only two books which hadle with chinese antiques. all the best Dirk

11th March 2010, 06:30 AM	#7
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	hand cannons These are different variations of the "hand-gonne", the earliest type of hand-held projectile weapon using gunpowder as an explosive propellant. The examples in this assortment are the types used for signalling, or noisemakers: typically they are of wrought iron, are somewhat crude, and tend to be multi-barrelled (using either a wick-fired touchhole or percussion caps struck by a hand-held hard object such as a hammer, rock, or the like). Examples of these weapons have been found not only in China but Korea and various parts of SE Asia as well. They are different from the military-issue hand-cannons from China, Korea, Vietnam, and even Japan, whose heyday was prior to the introduction of matchlock muskets by the Portuguese (and, in the case of N. China) by Ottoman emissaries in the early 1500s. I would refer the reader to Howard L. Blackmore's excellent article on these weapons, "The Oldest Dated Gun", in the journal ARMS COLLECTING, Vol. 34, No. 2 (May 1995). The military hand-gonnes (the earliest extant specimen with a date is Chinese, 1332) are almost always of bronze, single-barrelled, in most cases with an expansion or bulge which reinforces the combustion-chamber, and with several raised moldings at intervals along the barrel. They are generally well-cast and finished and unlike the pieces shown in this thread, they are inscribed with the place of manufacture and date. Most indicate manufacture in the 15th and early 16th cent.; those with later dates are scarcer and they seem to have fallen completely out of use by turn of the 17th cent. except, perhaps, as signalling devices or short-range weapons used for throwing a quantity of buckshot-like projectiles from their relatively large bores. I have examined a large number of the iron cannons which are the subject of this thread. Most recently, over a half dozen of them which a dealer brought to the Louisville gun show. Some appear to have been assembled of industrial-type steam pipe, with wire coil wrapping and signs of welding here and there. Despite the rust, the wire appeared to be drawn by mechanical processes. I have been informed that roughly-made muskets (some of vaguely European style but locally-made), and blacksmith made devices such as these "gonnes" remained in use well into the 20th cent. by Chinese farmers to scare birds away from their crops. (the custom was maintained even in some Chinese emigre communities: years ago a friend in Hawaii showed me a couple of rusty surplus military muskets recovered from under a house in Honolulu, the family used to have rice farms a few generations back. Practically every farming household had these, for scaring birds or for shooting them for the pot. One of the guns my friend found was an unaltered Prussian army musket which could have been from the time of Frederick the Great, converted from flintlock, with the "Potsdam" inscription on the lockplate still legible. Sadly, a century or more of neglect in tropical humidity had turned it into an unrestorable wallhanger.

18th January 2010, 08:03 AM	#2
bluelake Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Gyeongsan, South Korea Posts: 57	It's real and fits on a pole. I have one that I got here in Korea and it has percussion cap nipples. There is a YouTube video of a similar one being used: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNXkUA0KFNY

9th March 2010, 04:59 AM	#4
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	Hello Dirk. Unless your gun is chemically aged, I would say that it several hundred years old. Hard to tell origin, as that style was world wide.

11th March 2010, 12:49 PM	#8
bluelake Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Gyeongsan, South Korea Posts: 57	I have one I bought here in Korea a few years ago. Attached Images

11th March 2010, 10:45 PM	#9
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	If the converted ones are to be hit with something to detonate the cap, then they must be bloody hard to aim.