Another Surakarta Keris

Gustav · 11th January 2024, 11:02 PM

Just a question: is Wengkon or Adeg Wengkon the Pamor of Keris given to newly appointed Bupati in the past?

Adeg Wengkon is Adeg Wengkon also in KJ book.

A. G. Maisey · 12th January 2024, 04:59 AM

Adeg Wengkon, according to what I was told by those who were more knowledgeable than myself, is a misnomer, in fact, Adeg Wengkon should be called Tejo Kinurung, but that is only when the line of border pamor is unbroken, if it fails to meet in the point area, then it becomes adeg tiga.

Tejo Kinurung is a pamor that was/is favoured by karaton & government employees, it is not the pamor that was given to newly appointed bupatis. However, going back a few years --- maybe twenty odd --- it was a popular belief amongst some collectors that the so-called "adeg wengkon" pamor was actually given to the bupati to protect that bupati, whilst others had the idea that the adeg was representative of the populace of the province and it was the populace that the border was protecting.

The function of a wengkon understood as a border is protective, where it encloses any other pamor, then the other pamor is read as the thing being protected, where it does not enclose another pamor then it is protecting the enclosed area of the blade which is then read as the wengkuan>wewengkon>wengko, ie, the province. The function of a bupati is the governance & protection of a province or region, so it is the line of pamor that then represents the bupati.

When a wengkon encloses a line of standing (adeg) pamor, it is enclosing and protecting against disaster, curses, black magic & so on.

When PBXII was still with us keris & tombak of exceptionally high quality were given on loan to newly appointed Bupatis, these pusakas were not often returned to the kraton upon the passing of the Bupati to whom they had been loaned, they were usually retained by his family, and then found other homes.

David · 12th January 2024, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Adeg Wengkon, according to what I was told by those who were more knowledgeable than myself, is a misnomer, in fact, Adeg Wengkon should be called Tejo Kinurung, but that is only when the line of border pamor is unbroken, if it fails to meet in the point area, then it becomes adeg tiga.

Tejo Kinurung is a pamor that was/is favoured by karaton & government employees, it is not the pamor that was given to newly appointed bupatis. However, going back a few years --- maybe twenty odd --- it was a popular belief amongst some collectors that the so-called "adeg wengkon" pamor was actually given to the bupati to protect that bupati, whilst others had the idea that the adeg was representative of the populace of the province and it was the populace that the border was protecting.

The function of a wengkon understood as a border is protective, where it encloses any other pamor, then the other pamor is read as the thing being protected, where it does not enclose another pamor then it is protecting the enclosed area of the blade which is then read as the wengkuan>wewengkon>wengko, ie, the province. The function of a bupati is the governance & protection of a province or region, so it is the line of pamor that then represents the bupati.

When a wengkon encloses a line of standing (adeg) pamor, it is enclosing and protecting against disaster, curses, black magic & so on.

Alan, is this relatively new information that you have received from "those more knowledgeable" than you?

A. G. Maisey · 13th January 2024, 01:44 AM

No David, the tejo kinurung thing goes back sometime in the 1980's, but since everybody believes that adeg wengkon is OK, I go with the flow, I don't see it as my job to give lessons with every variation in names, for one thing, I would not have time, for seconds I do not want to get into long debates/discussions for no real purpose.

In fact, most of the understanding and information I have is dated back before year 2000. Pak Parman got his promotion in 1995, Pauzan moved on in 2014, Hardjonagoro bought a ticket out in 2008. All the people from whom I learnt moved on some time ago, and all I have to learn from new people is how much their ideas have changed & been added to since my friends & teachers left us.

Names vary, anybody who has any understanding of keris knows that, so we use whatever suits the occasion.

But this is a discussion group, Gustav raised a valid question in discussion so I gave an answer that maybe filled the gap.

Gustav · 16th January 2024, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Adeg Wengkon, according to what I was told by those who were more knowledgeable than myself, is a misnomer, in fact, Adeg Wengkon should be called Tejo Kinurung, but that is only when the line of border pamor is unbroken, if it fails to meet in the point area, then it becomes adeg tiga.

Tejo Kinurung is a pamor that was/is favoured by karaton & government employees, it is not the pamor that was given to newly appointed bupatis. However, going back a few years --- maybe twenty odd --- it was a popular belief amongst some collectors that the so-called "adeg wengkon" pamor was actually given to the bupati to protect that bupati, whilst others had the idea that the adeg was representative of the populace of the province and it was the populace that the border was protecting.

The function of a wengkon understood as a border is protective, where it encloses any other pamor, then the other pamor is read as the thing being protected, where it does not enclose another pamor then it is protecting the enclosed area of the blade which is then read as the wengkuan>wewengkon>wengko, ie, the province. The function of a bupati is the governance & protection of a province or region, so it is the line of pamor that then represents the bupati.

When a wengkon encloses a line of standing (adeg) pamor, it is enclosing and protecting against disaster, curses, black magic & so on.

When PBXII was still with us keris & tombak of exceptionally high quality were given on loan to newly appointed Bupatis, these pusakas were not often returned to the kraton upon the passing of the Bupati to whom they had been loaned, they were usually retained by his family, and then found other homes.

Alan, I asked that question about Adeg Wengkon or Wengkon being given to newly appointed Bupati, because some time ago you wrote:

"In olden times the Susuhunan of Surakarta would usually give a keris with adeg wengkon to newly appointed bupatis. This was symbolic of the bupati's duty of care to the people for whom he was responsible. The wengkon was the protective power of the bupati, the line of adeg was symbolic of his people."

In the same post you explained, that Tejo Kinurung and Adeg Wengkon are two completely different Pamor:

"Adeg tiga (adeg telu, tri adeg) and tejo kinurung are all essentially the same pamor, the difference, if there is one at all, between adeg tiga and tejo kinurung is only in the spacing of the lines of pamor, but those lines of pamor are made in the same way with multi folds of pamor set between heavier layers of iron, and turned side on to produce a pamor miring motif with the three lines of pamor at 90 degrees to the core.

However, adeg wengkon is a completely different pamor to these and it is one of the most difficult pamors to make well. Adeg wengkon consists of a layer of (usually) unfolded pamor material laid against the core, and then the iron with one centrally placed strip of pamor miring laid over the core + pamor layer. Repeated both sides of blade. The result is the wengkon as mlumah, and the single adeg as miring."

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...5&postcount=22

I also remember to have read about Keris with Pamor Adeg Wengkon being given to newly apointed Bupati in your catalogues.

A. G. Maisey · 17th January 2024, 03:19 AM

Thank you for bringing this to my attention Gustav, I had been expecting somebody to mention this variation, & indeed, several people have already mentioned it to me, not in this forum, but in private correspondence. It is quite flattering to find people paying such close attention to my writing, whether that writing is intended for general public consumption, or for marketing purposes, or for other reasons.

There are a couple of different elements involved in giving you an adequate reply to your comments, so please bear with me.

In my post #24 I wrote this:-

"Names vary, anybody who has any understanding of keris knows that, so we use whatever suits the occasion.

But this is a discussion group, Gustav raised a valid question in discussion so I gave an answer that maybe filled the gap."

In all areas of belief, and I guess, also of knowledge, there are layers of understanding. New information given is, in my experience, only given when the questioner demonstrates an ability to understand that information. This principle definitely applies in respect of the keris, and if we consider other fields, including fields that are distinctly orientated to Western World Culture, perhaps the same principle applies.

Gustav, you raised a pointed question, one specific, clearly stated question. By doing this you demonstrated that you were perhaps ready to move to a different level of understanding.

I provided an answer to your question that would not have been suitable in the context, nor at the time when my previous comment was made. Here is the thread in which I made this comment, the thread dates from nearly 14 years ago, and what I said about these pamors was made as comment, not in response to a question, let alone a pointed question.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11904

I was aware of this thread when I responded to your question in this present thread, but I gave you the response you deserved in any case.

In 2010, and for some time prior to that, the bulk of keris literate people with whom I was in contact seemed to hold the belief that adeg wengkon was the pamor given to newly appointed bupatis, and that this was a universal practice. Where there is a widespread generally held belief, & I hold a different belief, I tend to try not to create controversy by making contentious statements in passing discussion, particularly when I cannot support my statement unless I use more words than the situation calls for. When I consider something is sufficiently important to go deeper, I will do so, as I have in my response to your pointed question.

In that 2010 post my comments on the difference between pamor tejo kinurung & pamor adeg wengkon were directed at the method of manufacture, not at symbolism.

As to the use of the two terms "adeg wengkon" & "tejo kinurung", the common term in everyday usage for this pamor is adeg wengkon, however, I have heard both terms used for the same physical example by the same person, in the same conversation. I do not know why this highly respected person changed from one name to another, it is possible that the variation in usage was simply a convention of Javanese speech where use of a word could cause a less harmonious sound, but this is speculation.

While we are talking about name differences we might like to consider that some people prefer to name tejo kinurung as adeg tiga or adeg telu, then we have others who prefer sodo saler tepen for adeg wengkon.

Gustav, what I write, & also what I say, depends upon the situation, context, time & place, & sometimes the person who asks the question. I do not have only one line of thought on most things. In some fields an element of belief or of knowledge can have only one, fixed unquestionably correct interpretation. In the field of keris belief, & of keris knowledge, this idea of fixed interpretation does not, and cannot, exist.

Many years ago I asked Panembahan Harjonegoro (Alm.) why it was that you could get a different answer regarding the tangguh of a keris, from the same person if you asked that person on various occasions spaced well apart, for an opinion on the tangguh of the same keris.

His response was that Javanese people do not think logically, nor in a fixed pattern, they think emotionally and the answer given to any question will be dictated by emotion & context. Thus, when the respondent is having a good day, a particular keris might be tangguh Mataram Sultan Agungan, but if he is having a bad day the same keris could be tangguh Koripan. Maybe if he is having a really great day, that same keris might get elevated to tangguh Majapahit. Similarly, since Javanese people are fueled by emotion, they do not like to cause others to feel uncomfortable, so often an answer to a question will be what the responder believes the questioner wishes to hear.

My comments & responses vary in a similar way, probably not so much directed by emotion, but directed by context & situation.

Please accept my apologies if this rather flexible way of thinking is not to your liking.

11th January 2024, 11:02 PM	#1
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,202	Just a question: is Wengkon or Adeg Wengkon the Pamor of Keris given to newly appointed Bupati in the past? Adeg Wengkon is Adeg Wengkon also in KJ book.

12th January 2024, 04:59 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,736	Adeg Wengkon, according to what I was told by those who were more knowledgeable than myself, is a misnomer, in fact, Adeg Wengkon should be called Tejo Kinurung, but that is only when the line of border pamor is unbroken, if it fails to meet in the point area, then it becomes adeg tiga. Tejo Kinurung is a pamor that was/is favoured by karaton & government employees, it is not the pamor that was given to newly appointed bupatis. However, going back a few years --- maybe twenty odd --- it was a popular belief amongst some collectors that the so-called "adeg wengkon" pamor was actually given to the bupati to protect that bupati, whilst others had the idea that the adeg was representative of the populace of the province and it was the populace that the border was protecting. The function of a wengkon understood as a border is protective, where it encloses any other pamor, then the other pamor is read as the thing being protected, where it does not enclose another pamor then it is protecting the enclosed area of the blade which is then read as the wengkuan>wewengkon>wengko, ie, the province. The function of a bupati is the governance & protection of a province or region, so it is the line of pamor that then represents the bupati. When a wengkon encloses a line of standing (adeg) pamor, it is enclosing and protecting against disaster, curses, black magic & so on. When PBXII was still with us keris & tombak of exceptionally high quality were given on loan to newly appointed Bupatis, these pusakas were not often returned to the kraton upon the passing of the Bupati to whom they had been loaned, they were usually retained by his family, and then found other homes.

13th January 2024, 01:44 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,736	No David, the tejo kinurung thing goes back sometime in the 1980's, but since everybody believes that adeg wengkon is OK, I go with the flow, I don't see it as my job to give lessons with every variation in names, for one thing, I would not have time, for seconds I do not want to get into long debates/discussions for no real purpose. In fact, most of the understanding and information I have is dated back before year 2000. Pak Parman got his promotion in 1995, Pauzan moved on in 2014, Hardjonagoro bought a ticket out in 2008. All the people from whom I learnt moved on some time ago, and all I have to learn from new people is how much their ideas have changed & been added to since my friends & teachers left us. Names vary, anybody who has any understanding of keris knows that, so we use whatever suits the occasion. But this is a discussion group, Gustav raised a valid question in discussion so I gave an answer that maybe filled the gap.

17th January 2024, 03:19 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,736	Thank you for bringing this to my attention Gustav, I had been expecting somebody to mention this variation, & indeed, several people have already mentioned it to me, not in this forum, but in private correspondence. It is quite flattering to find people paying such close attention to my writing, whether that writing is intended for general public consumption, or for marketing purposes, or for other reasons. There are a couple of different elements involved in giving you an adequate reply to your comments, so please bear with me. In my post #24 I wrote this:- "Names vary, anybody who has any understanding of keris knows that, so we use whatever suits the occasion. But this is a discussion group, Gustav raised a valid question in discussion so I gave an answer that maybe filled the gap." In all areas of belief, and I guess, also of knowledge, there are layers of understanding. New information given is, in my experience, only given when the questioner demonstrates an ability to understand that information. This principle definitely applies in respect of the keris, and if we consider other fields, including fields that are distinctly orientated to Western World Culture, perhaps the same principle applies. Gustav, you raised a pointed question, one specific, clearly stated question. By doing this you demonstrated that you were perhaps ready to move to a different level of understanding. I provided an answer to your question that would not have been suitable in the context, nor at the time when my previous comment was made. Here is the thread in which I made this comment, the thread dates from nearly 14 years ago, and what I said about these pamors was made as comment, not in response to a question, let alone a pointed question. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11904 I was aware of this thread when I responded to your question in this present thread, but I gave you the response you deserved in any case. In 2010, and for some time prior to that, the bulk of keris literate people with whom I was in contact seemed to hold the belief that adeg wengkon was the pamor given to newly appointed bupatis, and that this was a universal practice. Where there is a widespread generally held belief, & I hold a different belief, I tend to try not to create controversy by making contentious statements in passing discussion, particularly when I cannot support my statement unless I use more words than the situation calls for. When I consider something is sufficiently important to go deeper, I will do so, as I have in my response to your pointed question. In that 2010 post my comments on the difference between pamor tejo kinurung & pamor adeg wengkon were directed at the method of manufacture, not at symbolism. As to the use of the two terms "adeg wengkon" & "tejo kinurung", the common term in everyday usage for this pamor is adeg wengkon, however, I have heard both terms used for the same physical example by the same person, in the same conversation. I do not know why this highly respected person changed from one name to another, it is possible that the variation in usage was simply a convention of Javanese speech where use of a word could cause a less harmonious sound, but this is speculation. While we are talking about name differences we might like to consider that some people prefer to name tejo kinurung as adeg tiga or adeg telu, then we have others who prefer sodo saler tepen for adeg wengkon. Gustav, what I write, & also what I say, depends upon the situation, context, time & place, & sometimes the person who asks the question. I do not have only one line of thought on most things. In some fields an element of belief or of knowledge can have only one, fixed unquestionably correct interpretation. In the field of keris belief, & of keris knowledge, this idea of fixed interpretation does not, and cannot, exist. Many years ago I asked Panembahan Harjonegoro (Alm.) why it was that you could get a different answer regarding the tangguh of a keris, from the same person if you asked that person on various occasions spaced well apart, for an opinion on the tangguh of the same keris. His response was that Javanese people do not think logically, nor in a fixed pattern, they think emotionally and the answer given to any question will be dictated by emotion & context. Thus, when the respondent is having a good day, a particular keris might be tangguh Mataram Sultan Agungan, but if he is having a bad day the same keris could be tangguh Koripan. Maybe if he is having a really great day, that same keris might get elevated to tangguh Majapahit. Similarly, since Javanese people are fueled by emotion, they do not like to cause others to feel uncomfortable, so often an answer to a question will be what the responder believes the questioner wishes to hear. My comments & responses vary in a similar way, probably not so much directed by emotion, but directed by context & situation. Please accept my apologies if this rather flexible way of thinking is not to your liking.