Keris (or not ?) with chinese handle

Athanase · 7th April 2022, 10:55 PM

Hello,

This is the last keris I bought. It intrigues me a lot because the blade is not really a Keris blade and the handle (in ivory) is of Chinese tradition.

The scabbard is from Yogyakarta and was specially designed for this blade (the small originality is most certainly a break that has not been filled, but which has been repolished properly to appear original).

The mendak and selut (sadly very damage) are in silver.

Blade lenght : 33cm

A. G. Maisey · 8th April 2022, 01:19 AM

There are a lot of Chinese people in Jawa, apparently one of them decided to make a statement.

Everything about this keris is outside socially correct parameters for Javanese social & cultural purposes.

My guess is that it dates from second half of the 20th century, that it uses an older Chinese carving that has been adapted for the hilt, and it was only ever intended for wear in a Chinese social setting.

Social attitudes in Jawa during other periods of time, and in other than a Chinese environment would militate against other possibilities.

One other thing:- the selut is very recent, I'd say 1960's at the very earliest, this pattern selut is usually plated brass.

Gustav · 8th April 2022, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

One other thing:- the selut is very recent, I'd say 1960's at the very earliest, this pattern selut is usually plated brass.

Alan, why do you think the selut is very recent?

Jean · 8th April 2022, 08:39 AM

The ganja of the blade seems to be missing? This type of selut made from gilt brass is common and recent indeed (tourist quality) but this one may have some age?

milandro · 8th April 2022, 09:09 AM

I wonder if this was always a kris blade or was it not a pendang blade adapted to be used onto a kris?

as for the Deity , I am not an expert of Chinese deity but I looked up a few images (I like the challenge)

Could she be Mazu? Goddes of the Sea? Especially revered by Chinese living in South-East Asia

Sometimes depicted with an object on her right or left shoulder and sometimes with a fly whisk, she is a Sea Goddess especially revered by Min people

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazu

A. G. Maisey · 8th April 2022, 10:04 AM

Gustav:- because I have seen literally thousands of this pattern selut, none have been old. They are very common in Jogja, I do not agree with Jean that they are tourist, in fact, in recent years the idea of "tourist" is pretty much something that is long past. People in Central Jawa use this type of selut on decent keris, it is common, and it is not expensive.

Jean:- I believe it is certain that the blade has been re-shaped from something, I think probably a keris, but really, it could be anything big enough to accommodate it.

Anthony G. · 8th April 2022, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athanase

Hello,

This is the last keris I bought. It intrigues me a lot because the blade is not really a Keris blade and the handle (in ivory) is of Chinese tradition.

The scabbard is from Yogyakarta and was specially designed for this blade (the small originality is most certainly a break that has not been filled, but which has been repolished properly to appear original).

The mendak and selut (sadly very damage) are in silver.

Blade lenght : 33cm

Looks like a Chinese deity.

A. G. Maisey · 8th April 2022, 04:35 AM

I'd say almost certainly a Chinese deity Anthony, but which one? Chinese deities can be very difficult to identify from their attributes, firstly because there are so many Chinese deities, and secondly because each deity can be represented in various ways.

In Jawa, particularly along the North coast, the Ming admiral Cheng Ho (Zheng He, or in Jawa, Sam Po Kong) is particularly revered, apart from being in command of a 15th century Ming Treasure Fleet, sent to make tributary states of kingdoms bordering the southern seas he also helped to bring Islam to Jawa. There is a temple in Semarang named after him, I don't know if he had it built, or it was built in his honour.

The Ming Treasure Fleets?

Well, that was an early Chinese attempt at exactly what China is doing now with Belt & Road:- turn the world into Chinese tributary states. This attempt failed because China got a new emperor who had Buddhist advisors and they thought that there were already more than enough problems running the country without generating more problems by putting tributary states on the books. So the "tribute or else" policy stopped.

Anyway, Sam Po Kong is sometimes shown with a fly whisk in one hand and scroll in the other, maybe if we swap the scroll for fortune sticks (kau cim) we might have good old Cheng Ho here.

Or maybe somebody else.

7th April 2022, 10:55 PM	#1
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 403	Keris (or not ?) with chinese handle Hello, This is the last keris I bought. It intrigues me a lot because the blade is not really a Keris blade and the handle (in ivory) is of Chinese tradition. The scabbard is from Yogyakarta and was specially designed for this blade (the small originality is most certainly a break that has not been filled, but which has been repolished properly to appear original). The mendak and selut (sadly very damage) are in silver. Blade lenght : 33cm Attached Images

8th April 2022, 01:19 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,704	There are a lot of Chinese people in Jawa, apparently one of them decided to make a statement. Everything about this keris is outside socially correct parameters for Javanese social & cultural purposes. My guess is that it dates from second half of the 20th century, that it uses an older Chinese carving that has been adapted for the hilt, and it was only ever intended for wear in a Chinese social setting. Social attitudes in Jawa during other periods of time, and in other than a Chinese environment would militate against other possibilities. One other thing:- the selut is very recent, I'd say 1960's at the very earliest, this pattern selut is usually plated brass. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 8th April 2022 at 03:50 AM.

8th April 2022, 09:09 AM	#5
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 419	I wonder if this was always a kris blade or was it not a pendang blade adapted to be used onto a kris? as for the Deity , I am not an expert of Chinese deity but I looked up a few images (I like the challenge) Could she be Mazu? Goddes of the Sea? Especially revered by Chinese living in South-East Asia Sometimes depicted with an object on her right or left shoulder and sometimes with a fly whisk, she is a Sea Goddess especially revered by Min people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazu Last edited by milandro; 8th April 2022 at 09:53 AM.

8th April 2022, 08:39 AM	#4
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	The ganja of the blade seems to be missing? This type of selut made from gilt brass is common and recent indeed (tourist quality) but this one may have some age?

8th April 2022, 10:04 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,704	Gustav:- because I have seen literally thousands of this pattern selut, none have been old. They are very common in Jogja, I do not agree with Jean that they are tourist, in fact, in recent years the idea of "tourist" is pretty much something that is long past. People in Central Jawa use this type of selut on decent keris, it is common, and it is not expensive. Jean:- I believe it is certain that the blade has been re-shaped from something, I think probably a keris, but really, it could be anything big enough to accommodate it.

8th April 2022, 04:35 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,704	I'd say almost certainly a Chinese deity Anthony, but which one? Chinese deities can be very difficult to identify from their attributes, firstly because there are so many Chinese deities, and secondly because each deity can be represented in various ways. In Jawa, particularly along the North coast, the Ming admiral Cheng Ho (Zheng He, or in Jawa, Sam Po Kong) is particularly revered, apart from being in command of a 15th century Ming Treasure Fleet, sent to make tributary states of kingdoms bordering the southern seas he also helped to bring Islam to Jawa. There is a temple in Semarang named after him, I don't know if he had it built, or it was built in his honour. The Ming Treasure Fleets? Well, that was an early Chinese attempt at exactly what China is doing now with Belt & Road:- turn the world into Chinese tributary states. This attempt failed because China got a new emperor who had Buddhist advisors and they thought that there were already more than enough problems running the country without generating more problems by putting tributary states on the books. So the "tribute or else" policy stopped. Anyway, Sam Po Kong is sometimes shown with a fly whisk in one hand and scroll in the other, maybe if we swap the scroll for fortune sticks (kau cim) we might have good old Cheng Ho here. Or maybe somebody else.