Keris with strange ( to me ) blade

fernando · 19th April 2008, 07:24 PM

Please help here,
This is a small keris i have just bought.
Its 8 inches blade has a strange particularity; instead of having its sides regularly plane it has, how to say, some hollows or waves

. The edges are almost not afected by this efect ... the hollows are more noticeable in the middle, like some deformable material you mould by pressing your thumb upon.
I hope this is visible in the pictures, as i wouldn't know how to put it in a propper english

.
Seller has dated the blade XVI century and the handle XIX century.
I would be much obliged for your coments, namely on the blade typology, attributed age plausibility, and whatever you kindly offer from your knowledge.
Fernando

lemmythesmith · 19th April 2008, 07:49 PM

Hi Fernando, the depressions in the blade are called "pichit" and are supposed to be made by the smith forming the metal with the thumb-not a technique I've ever used in any of my blades

Henk · 19th April 2008, 08:32 PM

Looks to me as a keris bethok pichit. Bethok is the dapur name and the pichit as Lemmy said are the thumb prints of the empu.
But I really doubt the blade is XVI century.

David · 19th April 2008, 08:51 PM

Nice keris picit. These are talismanic keris. As suggested the imprints are supposed to be done with the fingers of the maker. They are certainly less common, but not paticularly strange.

I don't think the seller's info is that far off. Pictures never tell the whole story, but this could very well be 16th or 17th century as far as i can tell. Is there a sheath? Can we see the pesi (tang)? What is the blade length?

fernando · 19th April 2008, 10:40 PM

Thank you all, for your teachings.
No David, there is no sheath

.
The blade is 8 inches ( 21 cms. ) long. The mendak (correct ?) is in copper.
I am not at home at the moment ( in Lisbon visiting my daughter ... and arms shopping

).
When i get back, i will adventure to dismount the hilt and take pictures of the pesi.
Could you meanwhile tell what region this keris come from ?
Thanks a lot.
Fernando

David · 20th April 2008, 06:18 PM

As far as the exact region i could not say, but it is probably safe to say Jawa is the place of origin. I am curious to see if the pesi has a hole, or the remains of a hole, in the end of it. The size seems right for talismanic purposes and often these keris were hung by these holes in special places of importance. It is possible that this keris was never intended to have a hilt at all and it would be no surprise then that it would also be sheathless.
Given the look of the material in the photo at least i would also not be surprised to find that this blade is at least 1700s if not older.

fernando · 20th April 2008, 10:47 PM

Hi David,
Oh boy, you sure are a master of these things, and i bow before your knowledge

The pesi actually has the remains of a hole in its end.
Further coments are so much welcome ... i'm all ears

Fernando

David · 21st April 2008, 03:03 AM

Yep, that's what i expected to see. I have a very similar keris to this so it's certainly not that i am a "master of these things" (or anything really), just going on what i have seen first hand.

fernando · 22nd April 2008, 10:04 PM

Hi David,
Allright, if you are not a "master", then sure you are a "mister" ( coach, in local soccer lexicon )

.
Resuming and according to what i have learnt here and after doing a little Net browsing, namely on glossary:
This piece has a dapur bentok ( curved ) pichit ( finger pressed ) blade.
Its dimensions and charactertistics fit into a talismanic blade.
Probable date XVII century.
Possible provenance Jawa; the hilt ( ukiran ) could be XIX century and is typical from central Jawa, right ?
You mention they are hung in special places of importance; like where ... residential places ? I have read something about hanging them in the house roof central beams; does this make sense ?
I notice that the pesi is a bit bent; this is a fault and not a deliberate situation, right ? i can easily clamp it in a padded vice and unbend it.
Is its pamor easy to tipify ?
Sorry to be such a bore.
Fernando

A. G. Maisey · 22nd April 2008, 10:13 PM

I strongly suggest that you leave the pesi strictly alone.

Do not put it into a vice, nor take to it with a hammer.

Leave as is.

David · 22nd April 2008, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I strongly suggest that you leave the pesi strictly alone.

Do not put it into a vice, nor take to it with a hammer.

Leave as is.

I definitely agree. It does, however, seem to have a little bit of rust on it which i would take care of if i were you.

fernando · 22nd April 2008, 11:47 PM

Allright, allright

Will just derust it with some penetrating oil.
Thanks for the hints.
Fernando

PenangsangII · 23rd April 2008, 03:41 AM

The bent pesi is quite normal for most kerises - I believe it was deliberately forged that way.

fernando · 23rd April 2008, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

The bent pesi is quite normal for most kerises - I believe it was deliberately forged that way.

I'll register that, PenangsangII.
Thank you

19th April 2008, 07:24 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Keris with strange ( to me ) blade Please help here, This is a small keris i have just bought. Its 8 inches blade has a strange particularity; instead of having its sides regularly plane it has, how to say, some hollows or waves . The edges are almost not afected by this efect ... the hollows are more noticeable in the middle, like some deformable material you mould by pressing your thumb upon. I hope this is visible in the pictures, as i wouldn't know how to put it in a propper english . Seller has dated the blade XVI century and the handle XIX century. I would be much obliged for your coments, namely on the blade typology, attributed age plausibility, and whatever you kindly offer from your knowledge. Fernando Attached Images

19th April 2008, 10:40 PM	#5
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Thank you all, for your teachings. No David, there is no sheath . The blade is 8 inches ( 21 cms. ) long. The mendak (correct ?) is in copper. I am not at home at the moment ( in Lisbon visiting my daughter ... and arms shopping ). When i get back, i will adventure to dismount the hilt and take pictures of the pesi. Could you meanwhile tell what region this keris come from ? Thanks a lot. Fernando Last edited by fernando; 20th April 2008 at 02:50 PM.

20th April 2008, 10:47 PM	#7
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Hi David, Oh boy, you sure are a master of these things, and i bow before your knowledge The pesi actually has the remains of a hole in its end. Further coments are so much welcome ... i'm all ears Fernando Attached Images

19th April 2008, 07:49 PM	#2
lemmythesmith Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 93	Hi Fernando, the depressions in the blade are called "pichit" and are supposed to be made by the smith forming the metal with the thumb-not a technique I've ever used in any of my blades

19th April 2008, 08:32 PM	#3
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Looks to me as a keris bethok pichit. Bethok is the dapur name and the pichit as Lemmy said are the thumb prints of the empu. But I really doubt the blade is XVI century.

19th April 2008, 08:51 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,025	Nice keris picit. These are talismanic keris. As suggested the imprints are supposed to be done with the fingers of the maker. They are certainly less common, but not paticularly strange. I don't think the seller's info is that far off. Pictures never tell the whole story, but this could very well be 16th or 17th century as far as i can tell. Is there a sheath? Can we see the pesi (tang)? What is the blade length?

20th April 2008, 06:18 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,025	As far as the exact region i could not say, but it is probably safe to say Jawa is the place of origin. I am curious to see if the pesi has a hole, or the remains of a hole, in the end of it. The size seems right for talismanic purposes and often these keris were hung by these holes in special places of importance. It is possible that this keris was never intended to have a hilt at all and it would be no surprise then that it would also be sheathless. Given the look of the material in the photo at least i would also not be surprised to find that this blade is at least 1700s if not older.

21st April 2008, 03:03 AM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,025	Yep, that's what i expected to see. I have a very similar keris to this so it's certainly not that i am a "master of these things" (or anything really), just going on what i have seen first hand.

22nd April 2008, 10:04 PM	#9
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Hi David, Allright, if you are not a "master", then sure you are a "mister" ( coach, in local soccer lexicon ) . Resuming and according to what i have learnt here and after doing a little Net browsing, namely on glossary: This piece has a dapur bentok ( curved ) pichit ( finger pressed ) blade. Its dimensions and charactertistics fit into a talismanic blade. Probable date XVII century. Possible provenance Jawa; the hilt ( ukiran ) could be XIX century and is typical from central Jawa, right ? You mention they are hung in special places of importance; like where ... residential places ? I have read something about hanging them in the house roof central beams; does this make sense ? I notice that the pesi is a bit bent; this is a fault and not a deliberate situation, right ? i can easily clamp it in a padded vice and unbend it. Is its pamor easy to tipify ? Sorry to be such a bore. Fernando

22nd April 2008, 10:13 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,700	I strongly suggest that you leave the pesi strictly alone. Do not put it into a vice, nor take to it with a hammer. Leave as is.

22nd April 2008, 11:47 PM	#12
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Allright, allright Will just derust it with some penetrating oil. Thanks for the hints. Fernando

23rd April 2008, 03:41 AM	#13
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	The bent pesi is quite normal for most kerises - I believe it was deliberately forged that way.