Indian scrpt mark translation help needed

spiral · 3rd December 2007, 10:21 PM

This mark is on one of the kukris apparently originaly sold in Germany in C.1970. listed as bieng from the Marajha of Jodhpurs armoury made for his Jodhpur State lancers for use in WW1. {Something I have been unable to find any evidence of so far.}

I presume its Shivas triden & a script mark?

All input & help welcome, but especialy Olikaras!

Spiral

olikara · 4th December 2007, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

I presume its Shivas triden & a script mark?
Spiral

Spiral, your presumption is correct. The script reads 'Bhi-Ma-Va-Ji'

'Bhima' is one of the 108 names attributed to Lord Shiva and the Trident is his choice weapon.

However, like you I am quite surprised to note that the Rajputs used Khukris in battle and that too in WW1.

olikara · 4th December 2007, 10:28 AM

On second thoughts, the Khukri would have been very advantageous to the Rajputs in the trench warfare seen in WW1.

spiral · 4th December 2007, 02:35 PM

Thankyou Olikara! thats great.

I think kukris are well known in jodhpur but personaly I do have doubts re. there issue to Lancer cavalry units in ww1, {another story was that the Marajah raised a troop of Gurkhas for the British in WW1 but I have been able to totaly disprove that.} They certanly seem to be from Jodhpur region & they could easily be ww1 era, but evry photo or book I have read so far about the Jodhpur lancers niether shows or mentions the kukri. I rather wonder if the were just, police , palice guard etc?

But more reserch is neccasary. some of the handles are also marked in English, FG & a number , in the Brit army FG means Frontier Garrison but I have no idea about in Jodhpur.

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 4th December 2007, 10:26 PM

It seems that while the kukri was obviously the well known weapon of the famed Gurkha regiments, by the late 19th century and of course throughout the 20th, these weapons were produced commercially for the military. I am not sure that these were used by units outside the Gurkhas without further research, but would not be surprised if they were. By WWI, there seems to have begun much of the reorganization and amalgamation of units that hallmarked considerable changes in the army. I dont think it was that unusual for units that had become gallantly labelled 'lancer' regiments to end up being utilized in many diverse capacities as the monumental undertaking of the "Great War' devoured resources.
I do know that the Gurkhas did eventually become well known in police and security capacities even to this day, and this type assignment was of course probably established for them often during peace time. It would not seem unlikely that a weapon such as the kukri would have been adopted by any forces who assumed duties that were outside thier original designation, such as if these lancers did become more diversified in wartime.

The 'frontier garrison' markings of course suggest the Northwest Frontier, where British forces were certainly diminished by the demand for them as reinforcements on the fronts were required by the war. I think one of the most fascinating aspects of WWI is that there were so many associated effects in so many worldwide regions, and these are seldom noted or discussed in the study of this war.

spiral · 4th December 2007, 11:16 PM

Hello Jim, Garhwali, Kuamon & Dogra troops {amongst others.] have used kukri for as long as the British inlisted Gurkhas have.

By mid Victorean times many Assam & Burma units did as well.

Many Sikh officers & later Chindit & even British , american & Australian air & tank crew in Burma in ww2 also used them. So did US special forces & even the OSS. This is all well recoreded.

Great point re. diversification of Lancers, there records do indeed show ground attacks & trench warfare in 1914/15 etc. i am just resistant to accepting salemans stories without evidence as I have learnt to do that to protect true knowledge as well as my finance.

Many collecters, forumites & dealers in the 1990s sold them as "kukri for the Gurkha regiment supplied by Maj. of Jodhpur" BNut Brit . Army records show he provided no infantry to europe in ww1 & just one regiment in ww2 of which 8 men were recorded as Gurkhas. " All of whom served in BURMA. {As did one of his sons.]

I have seen mayby 60 photos of the Jodhpuh lancers in France & Palistine in ww1, so far none show a kukri....

Personlay I would love to find some evidence to show the Jodhpuh lancers used kukri. but so far I am still skeptical of yet another "another arms & armour dealers sales pitch." Same as i am with car dealers & estate agents.

The currant currater of the Jodhpur armoury & museam states that he is "unaware of any kukri made for the jodhpur lancers." which doesnt mean they wernt, but it doesnt mean they were either.

Further research may reveal more, hopefully.

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 5th December 2007, 12:11 AM

Interesting notes on the Jodphur Lancers, and that they indeed served in France and Palestine in WWI, and that the photos revealed no use of the kukri. Although the photos being considered do not show any kukri, this of course does not mean that they could not have been used by them, as such use may have been limited. I doubt very much that any kukris that might have been used however, would have been made exclusively for that unit. The diversification I suggested would have an ersatz development that would have precluded such defined attention, and if they were, it would seem they would have been stamped accordingly. It should be noted here that my suggestion of diversification of these units is of course speculation only and should remain regarded as such as we consider plausible ideas on why a lancer unit would be using kukris.

Since so many kukris were of course produced and widely used by many other forces than Gurkhas, then procuring such weapons for use might haved been accomplished via any number of ordnance diversions. Without specific markings or other evidence, such considerations to a specific unit must remain speculation as I have previously noted.

The kukri became a popular and fabled weapon much as did the 'Bowie' knife in America and of course commercialization undoubtedly found all manner of folklore and colorful tales to promote them. Unfortunately, these fables often present considerable problems in the accurate study of the weapons.

Spiral, may I ask more on your note that you have used the kukri for a long time.Were you in the British military? I have never handled a kukri, but am aware of the deep affection held for these knives not only by the Gurkhas themselves, but many military men. I recall research on the Gurkhas many years ago, and the late Brian Farwell ( author of "The Gurkhas") fondly telling me of him 'waving a kukri about' in talking of a documentary he appeared in for TV.

Best regards,
Jim

spiral · 5th December 2007, 09:53 PM

Hello Jim, No I am not military, but my father was a Chindit in Burma in ww2 , One of the ones who walked all the way in & out , not the ones flown in.

His unit was about 50% Gurkhas so I grew up hearing about them.

{Allthough it wasnt untilll my fathers last 18 days on the planet that he spoke of his actual expieriences that had haunted him for 50 years..}

a friend acrooss the road & myself when we were about 6 chopped his bedroom windowsill to pieces with his fathers ww2 mk.2 issue kukri. Most of the men in the road I grew up in had been in Burma or Malaya.

He must have got one hell of a hiding for that.

Its a shame you havent handled a kukri, But I guess if you wanted to you would have. They work well.

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 6th December 2007, 12:13 AM

Hi Spiral,
Thanks for answering my question, I hope that was OK to ask, but I wanted to know more on your affinity for the kukri and knowledge on them. I'm glad that you were able to complete things with your father and learn more on his experiences which had to have been quite troublesome, it was probably a great relief to him as well to release them. What great pride you must have that he was with this distinguished unit! and no wonder you are so in touch with the kukri. Such things certainly add great dimension to the history of these fascinating weapons.

With all very best regards,
Jim

ariel · 6th December 2007, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Hello Jim, No I am not military, but my father was a Chindit in Burma in ww2 , One of the ones who walked all the way in & out , not the ones flown in.

His unit was about 50% Gurkhas so I grew up hearing about them.

{Allthough it wasnt untilll my fathers last 18 days on the planet that he spoke of his actual expieriences that had haunted him for 50 years..}

a friend acrooss the road & myself when we were about 6 chopped his bedroom windowsill to pieces with his fathers ww2 mk.2 issue kukri. Most of the men in the road I grew up in had been in Burma or Malaya.

He must have got one hell of a hiding for that.

Its a shame you havent handled a kukri, But I guess if you wanted to you would have. They work well.

Spiral

So, he fought alongside Ord Wingate? That would be something... They do not make soldiers like that anymore!
My hat is off!

spiral · 6th December 2007, 04:31 PM

Thanks Jim, no problem. Yes I wish my father had told someone what it was like when he was still a young man. The men in his unit believed no one would understand the things you have to do when 400 miles behind enemy lines in a jungle for months on end, No hospital evacuations for your wounded mates in those days , to weak to carry the wounded from lack of food or dyssentry & malaria, they coudnt leave them for the japanese to play with. So they had there own pact with each other. How does one explain that to the fallen ones wives & parents?

Thanks Ariel, Yes he was one of the men Wingate selected at the start. My father had utmost respect for him.

He was only young, as most soldiers are.

The cloth badge was his, They only issued it to him when he went on leave at the end of it all.

He never collected his medals & gave away his bush hat & captured Japanese sword. Ive tried to recover them but no luck so far even though Id happily pay double or triple whatever anyone else would for them.

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 7th December 2007, 05:53 AM

Spiral, I'm with Ariel! My very deepest respect... outstanding!!!
Thank you so much for sharing the photos and material.
All best regards,
Jim

katana · 7th December 2007, 09:05 PM

Hi Spiral,
we 'touched' on your father's history before...when you kindly gave me info on my WW2 machete. I too wish to share my respect as well.

I found this painting which may or may not be of interest. It is a painting entitled "Sergeant McCabe at the Battle of Sobraon placing the Regimental Colour of the 31st Regiment on the Sikh ramparts, 10th February 1846." (Painting by Ackerman)

In the corner, one of the British soldiers is brandishing, what seems to be a Kukri. No other combatant has one, but neither he or the Sikh (he is about to attack) have scabbards so whether it belongs to the British soldier or has been taken from the Sikh is unclear. Were Kukri used by the British at this time? I've cropped and enlarge so that it can been seen better.

http://www.queensroyalsurreys.org.uk...cabe/p005.html

Regards David

spiral · 8th December 2007, 04:17 PM

Thankyou katana,

Intersting picture! Not seen that one before.

It would have been not uncommen for officers in the Brit. Indian army to buy there own kukris at that time.

But the man holding the kukri is not in the Surrys Uniform & his skin colour matches that of the Sikhs. His uniform resembles Bengal Native infantry who at that time had numerous Gurkha units.

So most likely I think he is a Gurkha.

They were commonly used against the Sikhs at that time.

It was a British tradition to put the Gurkhas & the other native troops in the front line.

Spiral

katana · 9th December 2007, 03:37 PM

Thank you Spiral,
for the history lesson ..... the 'moustache' on the soldier looked typically 'colonial' ....never occured to me he was a native

Regards David

Jim McDougall · 9th December 2007, 08:01 PM

The dark uniformed soldier with the kukri looks to me like Gurkha uniform of c.1870's that I think appears in a title "Armies of India" by Maj. A.C.Lovett in the illustrations. What is most recognizable is the 'pillbox' type hat.
The Gurkhas was incredibly tough fighters who from what I understand, were pretty hard to hold back, so I think in battle they were more or less 'unleashed' rather than forced to the front. They seemed to have a sincere affection for the British forces, and in turn, the British carried an admiration for thier ferocity and valor in combat.

3rd December 2007, 10:21 PM	#1
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Indian scrpt mark translation help needed This mark is on one of the kukris apparently originaly sold in Germany in C.1970. listed as bieng from the Marajha of Jodhpurs armoury made for his Jodhpur State lancers for use in WW1. {Something I have been unable to find any evidence of so far.} I presume its Shivas triden & a script mark? All input & help welcome, but especialy Olikaras! Spiral

4th December 2007, 10:28 AM	#3
olikara Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: India Posts: 100	Trench Warfare On second thoughts, the Khukri would have been very advantageous to the Rajputs in the trench warfare seen in WW1.

7th December 2007, 09:05 PM	#13
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Spiral, we 'touched' on your father's history before...when you kindly gave me info on my WW2 machete. I too wish to share my respect as well. I found this painting which may or may not be of interest. It is a painting entitled "Sergeant McCabe at the Battle of Sobraon placing the Regimental Colour of the 31st Regiment on the Sikh ramparts, 10th February 1846." (Painting by Ackerman) In the corner, one of the British soldiers is brandishing, what seems to be a Kukri. No other combatant has one, but neither he or the Sikh (he is about to attack) have scabbards so whether it belongs to the British soldier or has been taken from the Sikh is unclear. Were Kukri used by the British at this time? I've cropped and enlarge so that it can been seen better. http://www.queensroyalsurreys.org.uk...cabe/p005.html Regards David Attached Images

4th December 2007, 02:35 PM	#4
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thankyou Olikara! thats great. I think kukris are well known in jodhpur but personaly I do have doubts re. there issue to Lancer cavalry units in ww1, {another story was that the Marajah raised a troop of Gurkhas for the British in WW1 but I have been able to totaly disprove that.} They certanly seem to be from Jodhpur region & they could easily be ww1 era, but evry photo or book I have read so far about the Jodhpur lancers niether shows or mentions the kukri. I rather wonder if the were just, police , palice guard etc? But more reserch is neccasary. some of the handles are also marked in English, FG & a number , in the Brit army FG means Frontier Garrison but I have no idea about in Jodhpur. Spiral

4th December 2007, 10:26 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,745	It seems that while the kukri was obviously the well known weapon of the famed Gurkha regiments, by the late 19th century and of course throughout the 20th, these weapons were produced commercially for the military. I am not sure that these were used by units outside the Gurkhas without further research, but would not be surprised if they were. By WWI, there seems to have begun much of the reorganization and amalgamation of units that hallmarked considerable changes in the army. I dont think it was that unusual for units that had become gallantly labelled 'lancer' regiments to end up being utilized in many diverse capacities as the monumental undertaking of the "Great War' devoured resources. I do know that the Gurkhas did eventually become well known in police and security capacities even to this day, and this type assignment was of course probably established for them often during peace time. It would not seem unlikely that a weapon such as the kukri would have been adopted by any forces who assumed duties that were outside thier original designation, such as if these lancers did become more diversified in wartime. The 'frontier garrison' markings of course suggest the Northwest Frontier, where British forces were certainly diminished by the demand for them as reinforcements on the fronts were required by the war. I think one of the most fascinating aspects of WWI is that there were so many associated effects in so many worldwide regions, and these are seldom noted or discussed in the study of this war.

4th December 2007, 11:16 PM	#6
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Hello Jim, Garhwali, Kuamon & Dogra troops {amongst others.] have used kukri for as long as the British inlisted Gurkhas have. By mid Victorean times many Assam & Burma units did as well. Many Sikh officers & later Chindit & even British , american & Australian air & tank crew in Burma in ww2 also used them. So did US special forces & even the OSS. This is all well recoreded. Great point re. diversification of Lancers, there records do indeed show ground attacks & trench warfare in 1914/15 etc. i am just resistant to accepting salemans stories without evidence as I have learnt to do that to protect true knowledge as well as my finance. Many collecters, forumites & dealers in the 1990s sold them as "kukri for the Gurkha regiment supplied by Maj. of Jodhpur" BNut Brit . Army records show he provided no infantry to europe in ww1 & just one regiment in ww2 of which 8 men were recorded as Gurkhas. " All of whom served in BURMA. {As did one of his sons.] I have seen mayby 60 photos of the Jodhpuh lancers in France & Palistine in ww1, so far none show a kukri.... Personlay I would love to find some evidence to show the Jodhpuh lancers used kukri. but so far I am still skeptical of yet another "another arms & armour dealers sales pitch." Same as i am with car dealers & estate agents. The currant currater of the Jodhpur armoury & museam states that he is "unaware of any kukri made for the jodhpur lancers." which doesnt mean they wernt, but it doesnt mean they were either. Further research may reveal more, hopefully. Spiral

5th December 2007, 12:11 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,745	Interesting notes on the Jodphur Lancers, and that they indeed served in France and Palestine in WWI, and that the photos revealed no use of the kukri. Although the photos being considered do not show any kukri, this of course does not mean that they could not have been used by them, as such use may have been limited. I doubt very much that any kukris that might have been used however, would have been made exclusively for that unit. The diversification I suggested would have an ersatz development that would have precluded such defined attention, and if they were, it would seem they would have been stamped accordingly. It should be noted here that my suggestion of diversification of these units is of course speculation only and should remain regarded as such as we consider plausible ideas on why a lancer unit would be using kukris. Since so many kukris were of course produced and widely used by many other forces than Gurkhas, then procuring such weapons for use might haved been accomplished via any number of ordnance diversions. Without specific markings or other evidence, such considerations to a specific unit must remain speculation as I have previously noted. The kukri became a popular and fabled weapon much as did the 'Bowie' knife in America and of course commercialization undoubtedly found all manner of folklore and colorful tales to promote them. Unfortunately, these fables often present considerable problems in the accurate study of the weapons. Spiral, may I ask more on your note that you have used the kukri for a long time.Were you in the British military? I have never handled a kukri, but am aware of the deep affection held for these knives not only by the Gurkhas themselves, but many military men. I recall research on the Gurkhas many years ago, and the late Brian Farwell ( author of "The Gurkhas") fondly telling me of him 'waving a kukri about' in talking of a documentary he appeared in for TV. Best regards, Jim

5th December 2007, 09:53 PM	#8
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Hello Jim, No I am not military, but my father was a Chindit in Burma in ww2 , One of the ones who walked all the way in & out , not the ones flown in. His unit was about 50% Gurkhas so I grew up hearing about them. {Allthough it wasnt untilll my fathers last 18 days on the planet that he spoke of his actual expieriences that had haunted him for 50 years..} a friend acrooss the road & myself when we were about 6 chopped his bedroom windowsill to pieces with his fathers ww2 mk.2 issue kukri. Most of the men in the road I grew up in had been in Burma or Malaya. He must have got one hell of a hiding for that. Its a shame you havent handled a kukri, But I guess if you wanted to you would have. They work well. Spiral

6th December 2007, 12:13 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,745	Hi Spiral, Thanks for answering my question, I hope that was OK to ask, but I wanted to know more on your affinity for the kukri and knowledge on them. I'm glad that you were able to complete things with your father and learn more on his experiences which had to have been quite troublesome, it was probably a great relief to him as well to release them. What great pride you must have that he was with this distinguished unit! and no wonder you are so in touch with the kukri. Such things certainly add great dimension to the history of these fascinating weapons. With all very best regards, Jim

6th December 2007, 04:31 PM	#11
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thanks Jim, no problem. Yes I wish my father had told someone what it was like when he was still a young man. The men in his unit believed no one would understand the things you have to do when 400 miles behind enemy lines in a jungle for months on end, No hospital evacuations for your wounded mates in those days , to weak to carry the wounded from lack of food or dyssentry & malaria, they coudnt leave them for the japanese to play with. So they had there own pact with each other. How does one explain that to the fallen ones wives & parents? Thanks Ariel, Yes he was one of the men Wingate selected at the start. My father had utmost respect for him. He was only young, as most soldiers are. The cloth badge was his, They only issued it to him when he went on leave at the end of it all. He never collected his medals & gave away his bush hat & captured Japanese sword. Ive tried to recover them but no luck so far even though Id happily pay double or triple whatever anyone else would for them. Spiral

7th December 2007, 05:53 AM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,745	Spiral, I'm with Ariel! My very deepest respect... outstanding!!! Thank you so much for sharing the photos and material. All best regards, Jim

8th December 2007, 04:17 PM	#14
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thankyou katana, Intersting picture! Not seen that one before. It would have been not uncommen for officers in the Brit. Indian army to buy there own kukris at that time. But the man holding the kukri is not in the Surrys Uniform & his skin colour matches that of the Sikhs. His uniform resembles Bengal Native infantry who at that time had numerous Gurkha units. So most likely I think he is a Gurkha. They were commonly used against the Sikhs at that time. It was a British tradition to put the Gurkhas & the other native troops in the front line. Spiral

9th December 2007, 03:37 PM	#15
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thank you Spiral, for the history lesson ..... the 'moustache' on the soldier looked typically 'colonial' ....never occured to me he was a native Regards David

9th December 2007, 08:01 PM	#16
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,745	The dark uniformed soldier with the kukri looks to me like Gurkha uniform of c.1870's that I think appears in a title "Armies of India" by Maj. A.C.Lovett in the illustrations. What is most recognizable is the 'pillbox' type hat. The Gurkhas was incredibly tough fighters who from what I understand, were pretty hard to hold back, so I think in battle they were more or less 'unleashed' rather than forced to the front. They seemed to have a sincere affection for the British forces, and in turn, the British carried an admiration for thier ferocity and valor in combat.