Allure of the Core

mross · 26th May 2010, 05:25 PM

I would like to have a discussion on the Allure of the Core. What is it about these blades that we find so alluring? They seem to have true multi-cultural allure, but for the purposes of this thread I want to stick to Philippine weapons. I have referenced some from the list here;
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore

Rather then waste space for a discussion of reasons for twist core, I’ll refer you to Manfred Sachses book “Damascus Steel”.

I have an opinion that the twistcore is somewhat of a contradiction in the Moro’s exhibiting of status.
Here is a interesting point of contradiction; The Moro’s used the handle as the sign of a higher cast persons blade, reference the silver and ivory and other exotic handle material and shapes. The scabbards to some degree showed status too. The underlining theme here is the parts that could be observed without the blade being drawn where how the Moro’s showed status. The question then becomes why so much attention to the blade for twisted core? It would be a very time consuming and expensive task. Even today’s smiths charge quite a bit to do it. I have observed some twisted core that don’t exhibit the status type handle. So again why? It seems unlikely that a lower status person would have the funds to buy a twist core blade, if he was a high status person then the handle would show it. Some possibilities;
1) One observation is that the older archaic type blades with twist core do not seem to have the elaborate status handles. It is possible that these archaic blades regardless of blade types do not have the status handle. Does anyone have information on this? It would be an interesting area of study to see when the status handles came into vogue. If this proves to be the case then that information is helpful in dating blades. It is also possible the status handles where more sedate, status being shown by materials and not elaborate styles.
2) The handle is a rehilt(We have seen this in a thread I started ).
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11599
There can be many reasons for this but first and foremost is probably money.

I have a hypothesis that the twist core billets where an import item and not locally made. Another hypothesis is that there was one region that made them and then traded the billets. Using some what flawed logic, if a local smith had his shop set up to do it why don’t we see more? I think it very unlikely that these where made in a haphazard way. It’s unlikely that a Datu, or other high status person would go to a smith that has never made a twistcore and hence does not have his shop set up for it and say make me one. Lots of question but no answers. Thoughts?

Emanuel · 26th May 2010, 06:24 PM

Hello,

Some of my thoughts on this...

I don't think there is any additional setup needed to do twist core once a smith can do simple lamination. If he can do forge welding and produce laminated blades, then he possesses the tools for twist core. The only thing I can think of restricting the widespread use of twist core is the skill and time needed to do it successfully, without cold shuts and without wasting material.

There is also another economic and marketing consideration. Twist core can be marketed as a luxury item, and as such bring a higher return. If twist core blades are produced in limited quantity, then they remain luxury items.

I wouldn't limit the twist core blade to a "status" piece. It could just have been a high quality fighting blade for whoever could afford it, without any social and cultural constraints associated with "status". The large and finely decorated hilts, however, were obviously intended to be shown and seen.

As to what is alluring about these blades, they're just beautiful and out of the ordinary. I think any pattern in metal is quite attractive and its revelation upon etching or polishing can seem magical.

For cultures of Islamic faith, the flowing water-like pattern of lamination/patterning and dendritic structures are especially important IIRC.

Emanuel

Rick · 26th May 2010, 08:58 PM

And I would bet that hilts started to increase in size as the 19th Century progressed .

A. G. Maisey · 27th May 2010, 02:05 PM

I know next to nothing about Philippino weaponry, but I do know a little bit about pattern welding and about the technology of the keris in Indonesia.

In those cultures where twist pattern blades were produced, the twist pattern was the result of necessary improvement to inferior material in order to make it useable for a weapon quality blade.

A further reason for the twist pattern is that in maritime South East Asia iron was a scarce and expensive material in some areas; good quality iron could be extended by welding and twisting with lower quality locally smelted iron, or imported iron of lower quality. Locally smelted iron from some local SE Asian operations was fragile high phospherous iron, and when this was combined with better quality iron, the result was a pattern in high contrast

With the passing of time the pattern became a gaurantee of quality, thus the twist pattern continued in production long after better quality material became available and the original need to manipulate the material to improve it no longer existed.

In early blades with a twist pattern it is likely that the pattern was the result of necessity.

In later blades with a twist pattern it is likely that the twist pattern is the result of a marketing strategy.

mross · 27th May 2010, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I know next to nothing about Philippino weaponry, but I do know a little bit about pattern welding and about the technology of the keris in Indonesia.

In those cultures where twist pattern blades were produced, the twist pattern was the result of necessary improvement to inferior material in order to make it useable for a weapon quality blade.

A further reason for the twist pattern is that in maritime South East Asia iron was a scarce and expensive material in some areas; good quality iron could be extended by welding and twisting with lower quality locally smelted iron, or imported iron of lower quality. Locally smelted iron from some local SE Asian operations was fragile high phospherous iron, and when this was combined with better quality iron, the result was a pattern in high contrast

With the passing of time the pattern became a gaurantee of quality, thus the twist pattern continued in production long after better quality material became available and the original need to manipulate the material to improve it no longer existed.

In early blades with a twist pattern it is likely that the pattern was the result of necessity.

In later blades with a twist pattern it is likely that the twist pattern is the result of a marketing strategy.

Alan,
You are spot on, for the reason for Pattern Welding. The history of it is nicely delt with in Manfred Sachse's book referenced in the original post. It is still costly which was what I was getting at. The books I have read stated the Philippino showed their wealth/status with the handle, not the blade. Which is a reason you see elaborate handles with mediocre blades. So why the switch from handle to blade?

A. G. Maisey · 27th May 2010, 11:41 PM

I'm out of my depth here, because I have very little knowledge of the development of the Philippine style of keris.

However, considered upon a logical basis I would suggest that in early keris the hilt was purely functional, and the status of its owner was not attached to outward appearance of his keris.

Do we know that there was a switch from blade to hilt as a status indicator?

Or are we assuming this because early keris have what we would consider to be high quality blades with ordinary hilts, and the reverse is true with later keris?

Possibly the keris as an active status indicator may not have been in place in earlier years.

Possibly the use of the keris as a status indicator was something that developed over time.

I have a keris that although not Philippine is related in appearance to the Philippine keris. It is a keris which served as the state execution keris of Brunei dating from 1842. In other words, it is a state keris. The dress of this keris is very plain, the hilt is simply wound with red cord and has silver ferrule.

This is suggestion only, and a supportable answer to the question could only be provided by an in depth study of the subject.

26th May 2010, 05:25 PM	#1
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	Allure of the Core I would like to have a discussion on the Allure of the Core. What is it about these blades that we find so alluring? They seem to have true multi-cultural allure, but for the purposes of this thread I want to stick to Philippine weapons. I have referenced some from the list here; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore Rather then waste space for a discussion of reasons for twist core, I’ll refer you to Manfred Sachses book “Damascus Steel”. I have an opinion that the twistcore is somewhat of a contradiction in the Moro’s exhibiting of status. Here is a interesting point of contradiction; The Moro’s used the handle as the sign of a higher cast persons blade, reference the silver and ivory and other exotic handle material and shapes. The scabbards to some degree showed status too. The underlining theme here is the parts that could be observed without the blade being drawn where how the Moro’s showed status. The question then becomes why so much attention to the blade for twisted core? It would be a very time consuming and expensive task. Even today’s smiths charge quite a bit to do it. I have observed some twisted core that don’t exhibit the status type handle. So again why? It seems unlikely that a lower status person would have the funds to buy a twist core blade, if he was a high status person then the handle would show it. Some possibilities; 1) One observation is that the older archaic type blades with twist core do not seem to have the elaborate status handles. It is possible that these archaic blades regardless of blade types do not have the status handle. Does anyone have information on this? It would be an interesting area of study to see when the status handles came into vogue. If this proves to be the case then that information is helpful in dating blades. It is also possible the status handles where more sedate, status being shown by materials and not elaborate styles. 2) The handle is a rehilt(We have seen this in a thread I started ). http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11599 There can be many reasons for this but first and foremost is probably money. I have a hypothesis that the twist core billets where an import item and not locally made. Another hypothesis is that there was one region that made them and then traded the billets. Using some what flawed logic, if a local smith had his shop set up to do it why don’t we see more? I think it very unlikely that these where made in a haphazard way. It’s unlikely that a Datu, or other high status person would go to a smith that has never made a twistcore and hence does not have his shop set up for it and say make me one. Lots of question but no answers. Thoughts?

26th May 2010, 08:58 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,263	A Wild Guess And I would bet that hilts started to increase in size as the 19th Century progressed .

26th May 2010, 06:24 PM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, Some of my thoughts on this... I don't think there is any additional setup needed to do twist core once a smith can do simple lamination. If he can do forge welding and produce laminated blades, then he possesses the tools for twist core. The only thing I can think of restricting the widespread use of twist core is the skill and time needed to do it successfully, without cold shuts and without wasting material. There is also another economic and marketing consideration. Twist core can be marketed as a luxury item, and as such bring a higher return. If twist core blades are produced in limited quantity, then they remain luxury items. I wouldn't limit the twist core blade to a "status" piece. It could just have been a high quality fighting blade for whoever could afford it, without any social and cultural constraints associated with "status". The large and finely decorated hilts, however, were obviously intended to be shown and seen. As to what is alluring about these blades, they're just beautiful and out of the ordinary. I think any pattern in metal is quite attractive and its revelation upon etching or polishing can seem magical. For cultures of Islamic faith, the flowing water-like pattern of lamination/patterning and dendritic structures are especially important IIRC. Emanuel

27th May 2010, 02:05 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,705	I know next to nothing about Philippino weaponry, but I do know a little bit about pattern welding and about the technology of the keris in Indonesia. In those cultures where twist pattern blades were produced, the twist pattern was the result of necessary improvement to inferior material in order to make it useable for a weapon quality blade. A further reason for the twist pattern is that in maritime South East Asia iron was a scarce and expensive material in some areas; good quality iron could be extended by welding and twisting with lower quality locally smelted iron, or imported iron of lower quality. Locally smelted iron from some local SE Asian operations was fragile high phospherous iron, and when this was combined with better quality iron, the result was a pattern in high contrast With the passing of time the pattern became a gaurantee of quality, thus the twist pattern continued in production long after better quality material became available and the original need to manipulate the material to improve it no longer existed. In early blades with a twist pattern it is likely that the pattern was the result of necessity. In later blades with a twist pattern it is likely that the twist pattern is the result of a marketing strategy.

27th May 2010, 11:41 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,705	I'm out of my depth here, because I have very little knowledge of the development of the Philippine style of keris. However, considered upon a logical basis I would suggest that in early keris the hilt was purely functional, and the status of its owner was not attached to outward appearance of his keris. Do we know that there was a switch from blade to hilt as a status indicator? Or are we assuming this because early keris have what we would consider to be high quality blades with ordinary hilts, and the reverse is true with later keris? Possibly the keris as an active status indicator may not have been in place in earlier years. Possibly the use of the keris as a status indicator was something that developed over time. I have a keris that although not Philippine is related in appearance to the Philippine keris. It is a keris which served as the state execution keris of Brunei dating from 1842. In other words, it is a state keris. The dress of this keris is very plain, the hilt is simply wound with red cord and has silver ferrule. This is suggestion only, and a supportable answer to the question could only be provided by an in depth study of the subject.